Topic: Advanced Defragmentation for NTFS volumes.

[Mac]

Did you find that the mft's needed to be enlarged Simon?

They have on 9 out of ten computers I've looked at, much to my surprise.

[Simon]

Well, DK said it did, Mac, but it seemed to be managing perfectly well before, and doesn't appear to have made much of a difference.  In fact, I believe this is something Windows XP tends to sort out for itself, when it needs to.  It seemed a little bit of a coincidence that my MFT just happened to be at 98% when I started using DK, after 3 years of using the PC without even knowing about it.  Forgive my scepticism, I'm not saying DK is a bad program by any means, but a lot of these 'bells & whistles' type utilities do tend to use scare tactics in order to make people think they are worthwhile.  As you said yourself, DK is basically Windows Defragger.  I just see it as Windows Defragger, in a multi-coloured jacket.

[Mac]

Well, DK said it did, Mac, but it seemed to be managing perfectly well before, and doesn't appear to have made much of a difference.

In fact, I believe this is something Windows XP tends to sort out for itself, when it needs to.  It seemed a little bit of a coincidence that my MFT just happened to be at 98% when I started using DK, after 3 years of using the PC without even knowing about it.

Forgive my scepticism, I'm not saying DK is a bad program by any means, but a lot of these 'bells & whistles' type utilities do tend to use scare tactics in order to make people think they are worthwhile.  As you said yourself, DK is basically Windows Defragger.

I just see it as Windows Defragger, in a multi-coloured jacket.

Your comments are interesting as they are really saying that the entire system is being marketed in the wrong way.

DK 10 Pro with frag-shield should therefore be an integral part of Windows XP, in order to avoid the 'scare tactics' theory, and would probably represent more of an advance than the introduction of Windows Vista for XP users.

I have had a case of the MFT standing at 98% and the drive was quite badly fragmented and showing signs of data corruption. Enlarging the MFT did make a worthwhile difference.

As for Windows XP sorting things out for itself, I have set the System Restore to make restore points every hour and to keep the restore points for one week, but it doesn't seem to want to conform to this and is rather hit and miss. Even the hourly periods between restore points are never exactly one hour...

When you mention 'bells & whistles' I think of a program called TuneUp Utilities which I think would sell very well indeed and also become an integral part of XP if it could be stripped down to just registry cleaner and optimiser.

I tend to steer clear of Norton's recent products as they tend to use a lot in the way of system resources although that depends on the overall hardware capabilty.

Really you would need to ask an industrial user for their private opinion of DK rather than accept the advertising copy writer's marketing strategy.

You'll notice that neuro-surgeons do not advertise in the same way, if at all.

I would guess that you have now increased the size of the MFT according to the frag-shield recommendation.

You should be able to see a difference in the performance of the defragmenter itself and the file performance should get better and better until it reaches an optimum level.

[Simon]

Yes, I have increased the MFT, according to the advice from DK, so we shall see how it goes.  Interestingly, and this is what made me sceptical, when I first received the MFT warning from DK, I Googled the text, and it came up with hundreds of different DK users on different forums, all asking the same question - what does it mean?  This inclined me to wonder if the coincidence of everyone's MFT being shown at 98%, once scanned by DK 10 Pro (which is the one I am using, incidentally), could be slightly dubious.  Many of the answers given were to ignore it, as Windows would sort it out, and one or two even said it was quite dangerous, as things could go pear shaped if you didn't leave DK in Set and Forget mode, although I didn't see any mention of problems if DK were to be uninstalled.

On the subject of Norton, I was an avid fan, until I read reports that the latest version was a terrible resources hogger (even compared to earlier versions), so as mine was due for renewal, I thought it was an apt opportunity to try out some alternatives.  After a few hit and miss trials, one of which (I believe) left so much crap behind, it screwed up my machine, I settled on Bit Defender, which is an AV / Firewall / Anti-Spyware and Anti-Spam Suite all in one, and so far I have not regretted my choice.

Also, talking of bloatware, I installed the latest version of Nero the other week, and couldn't believe the amount of needless 'bells and whistles' it bundled in.  I stripped it down as far as possible, then this afternoon, I discovered that both of my CD/DVD Rom drives had mysteriously vanished from My Computer, and had the dreaded     :!:    beside both of them in device manager.  After a lot of head scratching, uninstalling, reinstalling, updating drivers, etc, all to no avail, I thought I would try uninstalling the last thing I messed about with, which was Nero, and hey presto, my devices appeared again, and worked perfectly.  I have now reinstalled just the burning rom part of Nero 7, which works fine without all the fancy decorations.

[Mac]

Well, I tend to rely on DK 10 when I come across machines that haven't been defragmented in over a year where 50% of the filing system consists of junk files that have never been cleaned out ever since it took '98s defrag 24 hrs to defrag a 10 GB drive. They had 'uninstalled' Outlook Express' in favour of IncrediMail and hadn't removed the 30,000 odd emails. Games, installed in several directories where Mum couldn't find them, had been 'uninstalled' by deleting the shortcut, etc. (Kids).

The latest NERO is a bit gaudy. I like the StartSmart feature though. It is something which needs updating quite a lot, and I would much prefer to see a burning program incorporated into Windows so that the entire operating system can be updated via automatic updates instead of having to remember each seperate item.

I rely on drive imaging to undo any mistakes I make, as I find that you can't rely on System Restore.

I find that a lot of people don't know that you have to click on the NERO logo on the StartSmart panel to get to the updates panel. Clever disguise really... ¿

Since I bought a Lightscribe DVD burner (gimmick) I have this OEM version of NERO which I keep thinking I must remove and put the full, pre-lightscribe, version back on the system to stop the constant 'buy the full version' reminders.

I gave up on Norton years ago, even uninstalling Norton Utilities from an old ME system and giving it away, as it was a resources hog and made too many mistakes.

[Simon]

I don't think I've allowed enough of Nero 7 to be installed to bother with the SmartStart thing, although I did find it useful with Nero 6x.  As Nero 7 doesn't have the Media Player, I had to search for some plugins for Winamp to play .flac and .shn files.  I uninstalled Nero Home, as it just seemed too much of a system hog, but I'm now finding that Nero Scout still continues to fire up every time I start my PC, even though it's been uninstalled.  :roll:

[Reno]

When your talking about fragments on the hard disk you have to remember your dealing with the organization of data on your disk. Defragmenting does not speed your computer up. It makes your computer more efficient in the way it stores its data on the hard disk. By defragmenting you might be able to load old programs a tad bit faster, but the odds of you noticing a difference in performance on a new machine are slim to none.

If you want to speed your computer up. Follow the advice of someone who ran a computer shop for two years.

1. Go to your local department store and buy a can of compressed air. Open your case once a month and clean out your heat sink.
2. Download a good antivirus program. I personally use nod32 and avg. (set to run once a day when your not using the computer)
3. Download spybot, adaware, and the microsoft anispyware. (run once a week)
4. Download ccleaner and use it ever so often.
5. If your serious about security and keeping your computer clean use firefox, and set it to delete the cookies and temp files everytime you close your window. (this is what i do, its called the lazy way)

The odds of your machine being clogged up with malware and stuffed full of temp files and registery problems are a far higher threat to your computer's speed than a fragmentation problem.

Note: This is just me kicking in my two cents. I think most of you good folks probably already know this. This post is probably aimed mostly at newcomers.

[Simon]

Always good to have other perspectives, Bob.  

[Mac]

When your talking about fragments on the hard disk you have to remember your dealing with the organization of data on your disk. Defragmenting does not speed your computer up. It makes your computer more efficient in the way it stores its data on the hard disk. By defragmenting you might be able to load old programs a tad bit faster, but the odds of you noticing a difference in performance on a new machine are slim to none.

The odds of your machine being clogged up with malware and stuffed full of temp files and registry problems are a far higher threat to your computer's speed than a fragmentation problem.

Well, the speed is the speed in terms of hardware benchmarks, on a machine which has only just been entered into service, but you hit the nail on the head there when it comes to efficiency.

A 3.0GHz processor working at 40% reduced efficiency because the files on the hard drive take 40% longer to read due to fragmentation is not processing data as fast as it could if the files are 100% in order, so that the processor can run at 100% efficiency.

It is never advisable to have old temp files, virii or trojans on the system but people should know that by now.

It's a matter of fine tuning and gains in efficiency are cumulative just as losses in efficiency are cumulative.

When you add every possible gain together you increase both efficiency and operability.

Losses in efficiency are the engineers greatest headache and they are always due to bad maintenance.

Good maintenance = good efficiency.

[Reno]

I guarantee you that you won't have a 40% increase in the speed of your machine with a defrag. Even after several years of use your computer will NOT gain that much speed from a defrag. If there  is an increase in speed it will only be measurable using performance programs. You will not feel a difference, on the off chance you do it will be barely noticeable.

If you do experience an increase in speed it will be likely due to the cleaning out of malware and old registry keys.

[Mac]

If - all - the files were fragmented then an overall 40% increase in read time over - all - files would produce a 40% increase, but you can see that there is a separate measure for the read time on all files. You won't see too much change in this except during the initial use of Diskeeper 10 Pro, thereafter, as Diskeeper 10 Pro maintains the files in an unfragmented state, you will just see that the - overall - read time remains the same.

If it takes an application 10 seconds to open before Diskeeper and only 1 second to open after using Diskeeper, that represents a tenfold increase in speed or operability even if the rated hardware speeds stay the same, which they do.

Take a good look at the flash demo.

Similarly there are increases to be had when it comes to startup and shutdown.

My start up time (from pressing the start button to the instant when the desktop wallpaper appears) on a 10GB boot volume, is 67 seconds and shutdown is 10 seconds.

So, after cleaning all the junk files off the drive...

Day one...

1. Check the Master File Tables to see if they require enlarging and follow the recommendations given.

2. Run a boot-time defrag on all volumes setting directories at the front of the drive(s) and checking to run CheckDisk (chkdsk) and defragment the master file table(s) and paging file(s).

3. Set the program on 'Set It And Forget It' with the CPU priority turned up to High and elect to have Diskeeper do a comprehensive defragmentation with free-space consolidation and also elect to 'Efficiently defragment large files in 'Defragmentation Methods' in the 'Set It And Forget It', Primary and Secondary Defragmentation Job Properties.

Day two...

Run through the above procedures again to confirm that all is as it should be, and if it is 'forget' about it for a month or two, or until such time as you perceive there to be a slowdown.

It should now continue to defragment your entire drive automatically.

One less chore to do.

Cleaning out old registry keys and removing malware are separate maintenance items which should be carried out regularly.

Like most others I use SpyBot SD, AdAware SE, SpywareBlaster, CCLeaner and EmpTemp to remove Trojans, junk files and old registry keys and I also pick through the registry by hand every so often.

ERUNT/NTREGOPT is used to make registry backups and to compress the registry hives for a faster startup and the User Profile Hive Cleanup Service, from Microsoft, is used to ensure a clean shutdown.

NONE of the drive volumes use compression, as that slows processing down, and the Compress Old Files registry key has been completely removed for the same reason.

Result of todays automatic defragmentation showing a 43% increase in read time on fragmented files...



Most of the other files on the drive (94%) have remained at zero fragmentation over the 24 hr period.

Have fun!

[Mac]

Yes, I have increased the MFT, according to the advice from DK, so we shall see how it goes.  Interestingly, and this is what made me sceptical, when I first received the MFT warning from DK, I Googled the text, and it came up with hundreds of different DK users on different forums, all asking the same question - what does it mean?  This inclined me to wonder if the coincidence of everyone's MFT being shown at 98%, once scanned by DK 10 Pro (which is the one I am using, incidentally), could be slightly dubious.  Many of the answers given were to ignore it, as Windows would sort it out, and one or two even said it was quite dangerous, as things could go pear shaped if you didn't leave DK in Set and Forget mode, although I didn't see any mention of problems if DK were to be uninstalled.

Just to go back to this point which you raised, and as I don't work for Diskeeper and cannot therefore look at any studies they may have done, 98% does seem to be a little coincidental.

Windows is supposed to set aside 12.5% for the MFT on each volume and then increase it when necessary. Note that Windows never decreases the size of the MFT they tell me.

Which exact text did you Google for as I would like to see if there is any correlation between the 98% and the drive size in use.

[Simon]

I can't remember the exact wording now, Mac, I think I just copied some of the text from the warning given by DK in the Job Report.

[Simon]

I can't remember the exact wording now, Mac, I think I just copied some of the text from the warning given by DK in the Job Report.

Try this:- "Diskeeper reports MFT at 98%"

[Mac]

Couldn't find much on the 98% issue but there is this...

Hive: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE
Key: SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Conrol\FileSystem
Name: NtfsMftZoneReservation
Type: REG_DWORD
Value: 1 12.5% of free space, default
Value: 2 25% of free space
Value: 3 37.5% of free space
Value: 4 50% of free space

There is a new generation of defragmenters that can work with the MFT and paging files.

According to Microsoft, it is vitally important performance-wise to defragment the MFT and paging files, however, it is only safe to do so using boot-time defragmentation.

Any "online" method bypasses the defragmentation APIs within Windows NT/XP which Microsoft has provided for safe defragmentation, and can result in loss of data, data corruption, system crashes, or even loss of entire volumes.

Diskeeper, PerfectDisk and O&O Defrag use Microsoft's approved boot-time method.

Frag Shield (formerly Frag Guard) is the only one I know which can pad the MFTs to make them bigger if need be, and I've only come across it with Diskeeper.

So I rest the case on that issue.