Topic: original cd`s

[lobo]

Zero filling a drive isn't the same as wiping it is it?  With zero fill, OK, you are deleting the data, but you are overwriting it with other data, rather than actually cleaning it.  It also takes hours, from what I understand.

That is also my opinion Simon if you zero fill you are writing to the hard drive overwriting any data that was on it, by the fact that you are writing to the drive you can not have removed the partitions because you can not write to a drive without having a partition on it.

I'll have a look around and see if I can find a definite answer

Brian

[Sandra]

This is from Seagates site :

What does "low level formatting" an ATA (IDE) drive mean?

Actually the term "low level" is a bit of a misnomer. The low level process first used years ago in MFM hard drives bears little resemblance to what we now call a "low level format" for today's ATA (IDE) drives. The only safe method of initializing all the data on a Seagate device is the Zero Fill option of DiscWizard.

Why would I want to Zero Fill my drive?


The most common reasons to Zero Fill an ATA (IDE) hard drive are:

The drive has contracted a virus that cannot be removed without destroying the boot sector.
You are changing from one operating system to another and wish to remove everything from the drive.
How do I low Zero Fill my drive?



Zero Filling an ATA (IDE) Drive destroys 100% of the data on the drive. Make sure the drive is completely backed up before proceeding.
The Zero Fill option of DiscWizard Starter Edition is the only safe methods for use with Seagate and Conner hard drives. Some system BIOSs may include a Low Level Format option; use these at your own risk, as this may produce undesirable results.

DiscWizard Starter Edition (formerly Disk Manager) can be downloaded as a part of the DiscWizard package. It includes two Zero Fill options, partitioning options, and high-level formatting options. Zero Fill writes zeros in each data sector up to the complete capacity of the drive and will clean up some file system defects.

--------------------------------------------------------------
So it appears that it zero fills the boot sector too.
I assume that a virgin hard drive will have a zero in each sector when it is made so this option should restore it to an "as new" condition shouldnt it  

[Simon]

So, what that seems to be saying is, if you have a glass full of coloured water, and you want to get rid of it, you should fill the glass with clear water, rather than just tipping the coloured water away?

If you want a clean drive, I just can't see how zero filling it with data (zero's are still 'data', yes?), is better than having a drive with no data.

Perhaps it's just me and I'm missing the point somehow.  

[Sandra]

No Simon,I dont think that it works like that at all  
A computer stores its data as a binary code ie 0s and 1s.
If it is all 0s then there is no data.
I am not 100% certain but I think that if it was written as all 1s then that would represent some data as 1111 is a binary number whereas I dont think that 0000 is :doggie:

[Simon]

So what are you 'filling' it with?  You can't fill something with nothing!  

[Sandra]

Its being filled with zeros Simon ie Nothing,as far as data goes  

It is some 30 years since I was involved with binary numbers so I may be wrong but I am certain that you cant have a binary number consisting of 0s alone :doggie:

[Simon]

Well, if I wanted to clean my drive, and it was a choice between 'emptying' it with FDISK, or ZAP, or whatever, in seconds, or 'filling' it with 'nothing' in several hours, I know which I'd rather do!  

I'm going out now, so hopefully Sean or Brian will be along soon to tell you you're wrong!  

[lobo]

@Sandra

Zero Filling an ATA (IDE) Drive destroys 100% of the data

Does not mention the Boot Record and if its writing to the hard drive it must be writing data to the drive in fact it says

The drive has contracted a virus that cannot be removed without destroying the boot sector

this means that it dosent remove the boot sector

you can?t have a binary number consisting of 0s alone ?

The binary nomber for 0 is 0
0 = 0
1 = 1

In binary there are only two digits 0 and 1 the combinations of these digits make up a number in base two

For instance the word Sandra encoded in binary is

010100110110000101101110011001000111001001100001

In binary numbers the digits are counted from left to right

0 0 0 0 <-
8 4 2 1 <-

so the number 14 in binary is 1110 made up of from left to right 0x1 +1x2 + 1x4 +1x8

If the binary number was 1111 the decimal number would be 1x1 1x2 1x4 1x8 = 15

The IBM program zap.com is designed to write to the Boot Sector and when used removes all partition information, when you the access the hard drive with fdisk the drive is seen as a new none partitioned hard drive

Hope this helps

Brian

[Sandra]

Does not mention the Boot Record and if its writing to the hard drive it must be writing data to the drive in fact it says

The drive has contracted a virus that cannot be removed without destroying the boot sector

this means that it dosent remove the boot sector

Surely this means that you use the zero fill option if there is a virus present that needs the boot sector to be destroyed in order to remove it,so by using that option it writes 0s to the boot sector too, thereby removing the virus et al doesnt it  

[lobo]

After reading the Seagate information it looks as if it does, but I think that the software only works with Seagate and Conner drives where Zap works with any drive and takes 10 seconds

Brian

[Sandra]

Seagate only works on other makes of drives for the other tools but I have used it on a few different makes for the zero fill bit its just the diagnostics and partitioning that is limited to Seagate ones.
The zero fill (quick) option is the same as zap Brian and takes no time at all as it is only doing the boot sector(I think) :doggie:

[lobo]

Back on Topic
Several vendors no longer ship Windows on CD-ROM for consumer PCs. they put it on a recovery partition on the hard drive.

In case you have a problem, all you need to restore the system to factory condition is either a special boot setting, or a floppy or CD-ROM to trigger it.  [As long as that hidden partition is there]

The CD-ROM supplied with the system in these cases can not restore Windows on a hard drive that did not have this hidden partition installed on it by the original system seller.  

The CD-ROM can not restore a system that has damaged the hidden partition.

You may be able to get a true recovery CD-ROM from the system vendor, but you need May proof of system purchase to get it.  

This practice started during the time that Windows 95 was shipping, but more system vendors have adopted it.

I don?t know if drive cloning software can accurately copy this hidden partition when you change drive sizes.  

On a Compaq the process is called "Initial Microcode Load"   when a PC boots the BIOS looks for information from the hidden sector and allows the PC to restore itself automatically simply by pressing the "F10" during the POST ( an icon with F10 on it is displayed on the screen at this time)

Compaq Setup Discs
The answer is that if you want to remove the hidden partition then you can but you do so at your own risk, if you have removed the hidden partition on a Compaq then you can download setup disks from there site at
http://h18007.www1.hp.com/support/files/midsus.html

Brian
(Why don?t blonds eat bananas, they can?t find the zipper!!!)

[Simon]

Some time ago, possibly before Pals existed, some people may remember my disaster with an XP machine that I was trying to 'upgrade' for my cousin.  

Basically I managed to screw it up so much, XP needed re-installing.  (Actually it wasn't all my fault, but that's another story).  The problem was that there was only a recovery disc, but when I tried to use it, it turned out it was for ME, and not XP.  Not knowing about hidden partitions back then, I thought the only solution was to use my own XP CD to re-install XP onto the machine, which I did, but instead of being 'C' drive, the hard drive is now 'E'.  Is that because there was already an installation of XP on the machine (we didn't use FDISK, or anything similar, we just shoved the XP disc in and prayed!), and the 'C' partition was still 'live' but inaccessible due to the wrong recovery disc?

Question 2.  If I were to use something like ZAP in the machine, which would remove the hidden partition as well, could I then re-install XP from my XP CD, or would I be better off trying to find an XP recovery disc?

Question 3.  Are XP Recovery discs available to (legally) download anywhere?

I think that just about covers it for now!  




Oh, and here's an interesting article:

Time XP recovery discs anger customers[/u]

By Dinah Greek [04-04-2003]

Manufacturer accused of using Microsoft licence requirements to make money


Angry Time Computers customers have complained that the PC maker is forcing them to pay £60 for a Windows XP 'factory settings' restore disc that rival manufacturers provide free of charge.

Time introduced the charge because Microsoft does not allow companies to bundle full copies of its XP operating system with PC packages.

In order to provide the back-up, which is used to reset factory settings, most manufacturers store the restore function on a partition on the hard drive.

This is easily accessible by the customer, but many companies also provide a free CD containing the restore functions.

Time has made the function 'inaccessible' from the hard drive without the use of a special disc, for which it charges £59 unless customers buy one of its support packages, which cost between £99 and £249.

vnunet.com has been inundated with complaints from customers. One, Craig Hill, said: "When I tried to buy a Colossus PC, the Time sales assistant was insistent that I needed to also pay for a Windows XP back-up restore disc.

"As I know computers pretty well I was sure this was a gimmick as Windows XP has restore points."

Time has defended its actions, however, claiming that accessing the hard drive is a complicated process which is made simple by its software.

"Our reload disc policy uses unique software and restores the PC's factory settings easily and efficiently [in under 10 minutes]," said a spokesman.

"Other PC manufacturers rely on a method of restore which requires the customer to use expensive technical support for help installing various drivers and software.

"In our experience these calls can last for long periods and a customer may have to make these calls several times."

But other PC companies contacted by vnunet.com, including Samsung, Hewlett Packard (HP), Evesham and Dell, disagreed.

HP explained that its hard drive restore function did not require a telephone support line, although one is available if required.

"It is not a difficult process, just a few clicks. But if a customer isn't happy doing this we will send them a free restore disc," said a spokeswoman.

Most manufacturers also make it easy for consumers to burn their own restore disc from the hard drive if they wish.

High street retailer Dixons explained that it did not provide a restore disc, but that it would be easy for users to burn a copy from the hard drive.

Microsoft pointed out that it has no control over charges for restore discs.

"The provision of a back-up solution to the [version of] Windows XP supplied by an original equipment manufacturer is at the discretion of that manufacturer," it said.

"The costs of providing recovery media are up to the manufacturer and not Microsoft."


http://www.vnunet.com/News/1139950

[lobo]

Hi Simon
Question 1
Yes the new installation would have detected the old installation and installed itself to the next drive/partition

Question 2
If you use ZAP them all the partitions and information will be removed from the drive and you will have to use a full XP CD to install, a recover CD will not be able to access the hidden partition because it will be gone

Question 3
XP recovery disks for specific PCs are available from the manufactures but they access the hidden partition. The best way is to install XP and all the other programs that you use then run Norton Ghost to image the drive, write the image file to a CD-R then you can restore your PC to a perfect working PC in about 10 mins

Brian

[Simon]

Right, thanks Brian.  I'll get my cousin to contact Tiny to see if they can give her a proper recovery disc, as the one they gave her was for ME, not XP, but I expect they will say she'll have to pay for one, as the warranty had now expired.  In this case, is there any other way to access the hidden partition, and run the installation?  If not, the ZAP option would seem the most viable, with a new installation from a full XP CD, using the original serial number that came with the machine.