PC Pals Forum
Technical Help & Discussion => Self Building, Upgrading & General Hardware Help => Topic started by: daveeb on May 09, 2004, 17:53
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its not friday the 13th is it. i was transfering files to my xp hard drive when it made a couple of clunks then powered down. the system restarted but wouldnt boot, the drive was trying to power up but couldnt. i booted from my ME startup disc (ME = main drive) but couldnt remember how to do a diagnostic on the offending disc. i turned off and pushed the power cable and ide connector ribbon in just incase they were loose. rebooted and it worked !! the drive felt quite warm but i don't know how hot it gets normally. seems to be ok at the moment but i fear the worst. could it be over heating, or the fact that i was in the case yesterday installing my dvd rewriter, maybe the cables got dislodged although they seemed ok. :'(
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They do get quite warm to the touch Dave, hot even :(
Does ME see the XP drive when you boot in ME ?
If you suspect a drive problem its usually better to get the diagnostic prog from that drives manufacturers site and run those from a floppy :)
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when the problem first occured i couldnt boot into either drive, the only option i had was ME startup disk. after i'd fiddled with the xp drive cables it booted up again into xp ok.
i suspect the problem is either
overheating as i was copying 4gb of files from the dvd rewriter which seems quite warm (the two are in close proximity in the case)
a loose cable caused by my excursion into the case to fit the dvd writer yesterday
or er...something else
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Sounds like a loose cable then Dave, I have had pcs refuse to boot if the jumpers have been set for a master with a slave on the boot drive and the slave has been disconnected :)
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Sounds like a loose cable then Dave, I have had pcs refuse to boot if the jumpers have been set for a master with a slave on the boot drive and the slave has been disconnected :)
Hope you're right Sandra, although the cables seemed ok when i tried them. Funny how it happened in the middle of a file transfer. :o
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Oh dear its happened again twice tonight. A clunk from the hard drive, freeze then about 30 seconds later the pc reboots. this time unlike last week the drive(s) didnt seem to be struggling to power up again but the crash came again after a few minutes.
I then tried to boot into my master drive (ME) and it wouldnt boot at all.
I've changed the ide cable as it looked a bit bent (always has been) and the system has powered up. i ran scandisk on the drives last time and all was ok, also the s.m.a.r.t status is reported as ok on boot up.
could these symptoms be caused by a loose power cable and if so can i just swap them with some spare ones in the case, some have double the amount of red/black yellow leads to others :P
Also i dont know which drive is doing the clunk, neither of them seem to be faulty according to the maxtor utility so i'm confused. i feel like i've had a thick pill at the moment. What would you do ???
master = ME
slave = XP
Ta :P
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Has this only started happening since installing the DVD Writer? Have you got enough power for everything, Dave? Just a thought. :-\
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Dave does it only crash while your using XP or does it do it with ME too ???
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Hi Sandra, just had a bit of a nightmare 4 or so hours. it was the ME (master) drive at fault, i did another maxtor diagnostic and it died as i was doing it.
i had another ME drive i was using in a usb caddy so i naively thought that if i put the spare in as master all would be well. trouble is i've lost my dual boot option so cant get into XP which is on my slave drive.
i tried giving ide1 seniority over ide0 in the bios settings (bios features setup) but it still boots into ME (which i now hate). i've only just got online again now. Any ideas how i can get xp back. i tried switching the drives i.e. making the xp drive master by swapping the ide cables around and moving the master jumper over but the system wouldnt boot at all.
i'm out of ideas...thank god for pcpals i know you'll sort me out :P. i'm off to bed now but i'll look in earlyish tomorrow.
thanks :'(
ps btw the power supply is 300w simon, is that quite low. i did install a dvd writer but at the expense of a dvd rom, i assume they have similar power needs so it shouldnt be a problem. system SEEMS stable now, i'm just locked out of XP grrrr
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I think that because you dual booted Dave that the MBR of the original ME drive had the information that allowed the XP os on the slave drive to boot.
Not sure how you could get over that one at the moment Dave, if I can find anything out in the next couple of hours I will post it for you for when you get up but I think that you may have to do a repair on your xp drive while set as a single master that way you wont lose any progs you have installed or data but you will have to activate it again and get the updates for it :(
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I really am going now. ;) what do you mean by "do a repair on the xp drive" sandra. :P
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Do the following Dave, it worked ok for me when I had XP installed on a drive that I wanted in a different PC and it wouldnt boot up :)
If you cannot boot to the Desktop or you have an OEM version of XP then the following should be used to complete a Repair Install.
Boot with the Windows XP CD and at the Setup Screen press the Enter Key
You will be taken to the Windows XP Licensing Agreement. After reading the agreement press F8 to proceed.
The next screen gives you the option to do a fresh (clean) install or to "Repair the selected Windows XP installation." Press "R"
Windows XP will copy the necessary files to your Hard Drive to begin the installation and will then reboot. You will see the message that informs you to "Press any key to boot the CD". Do not press any keys this time just wait a few seconds and the Windows Startup Screen will be displayed. Following this you will be greeted by the Windows XP Setup Screens.
When Setup has completed you should find all of your previously installed apps and settings are intact.
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Sorry Dave, everything I have seen so far seems to follow my theory that the MBR is now missing from your system as it would have been stored on the failed ME drive :(
So the method above should do it but would take a similar time to the original installation and would require reactivation and I think the windows updates again.
This second option may work and should be quicker :)
How to access the Recovery Console:
The Recovery Console can be run from a Command Prompt by going to Start->Run and enter "CMD" to open a command window. Type HELP for a list of functions.
To run the Recovery Console from CD boot with the Windows XP CD (or with the optional 6 floppy disk set) and select "R" at the Welcome Screen.
The screen will switch to black and you will be asked which installation to log on to. If you only have one installation you will press "1". Remember that numlock is off at this time.
Next you'll be prompted to enter your Admin password. By default it is created blank so just press Enter.
At the C:\Windows command prompt type "Help" for a list of commands you can use.
How to Repair the Boot Sector:
If XP won't start it may be due to a damaged boot sector or a missing or corrupt ntldr or ntdetect.com files.
To replace damaged ntldr and ntdetect.com you can copy fresh files from the XP CD using the COPY command. Boot with the XP CD and enter the Recovery Console (as above). At the Command Prompt type the following (where "X" is your CD-Rom drive letter) allowing the files to overwrite the old files
COPY X:\i386\NTLDR C:
COPY X:\i386\NTDETECT.COM C:
To repair a damaged Boot Sector at the command prompt type FIXBOOT and press Enter. Then answer "Y"
I would suggest trying the FIXBOOT option first Dave, that may be all it needs.
Hopefully someone else will confirm this or not before you get chance to try it :)
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your an angel Sandra, i'll try it this evening and let you know :-*
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Sorry Sandra i don't understand the Recovery Console instructions at all. i cant boot from the XP cd as ME just boots up, do i need to change the boot sequence in the bios.
What would happen if i installed XP on the Master (ME) drive as well. would it be as simple as running the xp cd from the C:\ drive and can you have the same copy on two drives. if it installed ok i could gradually revert back to using the slave drive for data only :P
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I hope that the reason you couldnt understand the recovery console bit is that even with the boot sequence set to boot from CD as first device, it would only detect the ME drive as the bootable OS.
This will only work if you are going to have your XP drive as the master drive and as a single OS.
If you need ME as an alternative OS then you will need to do as before and have your ME drive as master and then format and reinstall XP on your slave as before as it needs to write to the MBR of the ME drive to allow the option of booting to either OS.
You can dual boot off the same drive but its better to create a second partition on the master drive for the second OS to install to, although I have heard of someone managing accidentally to install to the same partition which is not recommended :)
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Hi Dave,
I hope to be able to help, but affraid to confuse you more.
I can manage the multiboot if both are XP. I don't know ME. But probably it's similar.
The point now is trying to follow me, as I'll explain it on the base of XP (not ME), and try to find in ME the equivalent steps.
On the other hand, I have it in french. I'll try to translate or explain. I think you are capable to understand what I mean.
Here we go:
Semms that you've lost the "INI" boot files. this can be replaced by the following, (as I said, on XP):
Open "control Panel", take "System", and then "Advance", take the third one, or which is called "Start and recoperation" and press it's "Setting". On the top of the new window you have the "System Start" part. Press "Modify". Then a "not pad" will open to you. Well, just there, add the following:
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /fastdetect
"Copy & Paste" it.
Attention: If your XP (on the slave drive) is "Home Edition" you must change the word "Proffessional" with "Home Edition".
Then press "OK" to all those small windows.
That'll avoid you to reinstall XP. And will give you at the start of your PC the two options of boot.
I hope it helps.
But the other problems, I leave them to the techies like sandra and others.
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Thats a good idea Joudi and would be fine if both his OSs were later than ME.
95/98 and ME dont have a boot.ini when installed by themselves.
When you dual boot with XP or 2K it creates one on the primary boot drive.
However I think that this may work, dont blame me if you cant get it to boot into ME afterwards though Dave ;)
Open Notepad in ME, copy and paste the following :
[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)rdisk(0)disk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)rdisk(0)disk(0)partition(1)
\WINDOWS="Windows ME"
multi(0)rdisk(1)disk(0)partition(1)
\XP="Windows XP"
Save it as boot.ini not .txt or change it to .ini after you have saved it.
Then copy and paste it into your root directory of ME ( C:\ )
With any luck that should allow you to boot into XP again :)
Thanks to Scrumpy Jack for his assistance ;)
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Tried that boot.ini idea, no effect at all. but thanks for all the input from everyone.
If i were to swap the drives around ie XP = master me =slave what would i need to do to get them to speak to me, like i said i did try this and the bootup sequence just hung after id'ing the drives. (i did change ide connections and master jumper).
i'm not bothered about having ME as dual boot, if i can get xp working as master i'll happily consign ME to oblivion :-\
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That should be easy Dave.
Just set your XP drive as the single master, the bios toboot from CD rom and try the FIXBOOT thing as I put earlier.
If that doesnt work then run the repair from the same post.
As long as you only have the single XP drive in and its set to boot from cd then the recovery console bit will be available :)
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Dave can you try this one in place of the last one I posted :
[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\ME
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Pro" /fastdetect
C:\ = "ME"
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Nightmare !!!!
i'm online without firewall or virus protection i cant get nav03 to install (i had the prog saved on my C drive) so i'll be quick. i swapped drives XP now is master. i tried the repair option but didnt know my password (enter didnt work), so i did a reinstall. now i cant install my nav software. all the old programs are in the programs folder but i cant seem to run most of them. i tried to get the windows disc to reformat the drive but all i've managed to do is get a dual boot option for "xp" and "xp install" although i aborted the second install. i think i need to reformat the drive (which has 2 partitions C & E) the drive i replaced (now slave) is D.
how do i reformat the XP drive i.e. E. i realise how clueless i sound, and thats about right. its driving me mad now. i'm off before i get a virus :'( :P
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Hi Dave, by program folder do you mean thats the folder that your programs were installed to on your XP drive, not a folder that you stored programs in before you installed them ?
If so you cant install them from there as you wont have the setup file, nor can you run them from there as your registery will have altered so it wont put the correct files with the correct program :(
So lets see if we can get things done properly :)
Set your XP drive as a single master for now, you can add the slave drive later if you are just goinng to run XP as the single OS on your pc.
At the part where XP asks you where you want to install it to, after booting from the CD, it gives you an option to select the partion or delete a partition.
Select delete C.
If you want to wipe all the drive you can delete E as well at this point.
It will then give you the option to create a partition to install XP to and allow you to set the size that you want it to be in MBs.
The next step is to format it, if you are not using ME any more you may as well select the NTFS option.
After its formatted the drive it will start the new installation like it did the first time you did it.
After its completed, activate it and install your AV and firewall and get the updates.
Once you have done all that go to Start/Admin Tools/Computer Management/Disk Manager and that will allow you to format and allocate the remaining partition on your drive.
Then add your slave drive, remembering to set the jumpers correctly on your master and slave, some drives have a diferent setting for a single master or a master with a slave.
I hope thats explained it simply enough, sorry its a longish post but I hope I have covered everything for you, get back to me if its not clear enough on any point :)
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Dave, before you format, while you can still get online, get the Blaster Worm Patch (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=2354406c-c5b6-44ac-9532-3de40f69c074&displaylang=en), and save it on a floppy, then you can install it before you go online with your new installation. Otherwise you will get the Blaster Worm within seconds of going online, before you can get the updates. Also would be worth doing the same with the Sasser Patch (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=3549ea9e-da3f-43b9-a4f1-af243b6168f3&displaylang=en).
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First of all guys i REALLY appreciate the help, my heads going so be gentle with me. i've got sasser & blaster patches & zone alarm in place.
The original programs from my initial good installation are all there in the PROGRAM FILES folder in windows explorer but none are in the start menu/programs on the desktop. The desktop just had the recycle bin on it when i re-installed.
also on bootup i get a dual boot option of XP PRO or XP PRO setup
from a previously aborted attempt to reformat the E:\ drive. XP is on E:\ and the main partition is C:\ DATA. D:\ is the slave drive.
i'm probably missing something but when i boot with the XP cd my options are 1. reinstall, 2. repair, 3. exit without change.
is the option to reformat later on in the process.
i just want to reformat E:\ as the OS partition. C:\ the main original partition has loads of data so i want to leave it alone if possible although i could reformat. if i manage to do this will it repair the MBR back to XP boot only. also i'll need to retain XP as fat32 (as the D: drive is FAT32 and it also has loads of backup data i need to be able to read).
I feel incredibly thick at the moment ???
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When you boot from the XP CD, does it not give you the chance to do a New Installation? Speaking purely from memory, and from what has been said already, I think if you choose that option, it will then detect which partitions you already have, and give you the option to install to either partition. If you select to install to 'E', then theoretically[/b], I would have thought it would format and install XP on 'E', but leave 'C' intact.
Don't take my word for it, or you may risk losing everything! :-\
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You said earlier Dave that you were happy to just run XP and not bother about having a dual boot with ME as well didnt you ?
What size is the drive you have as a slave now ?
If its big enough, could you set that as your master and then you could install XP on that.
The current slave drive has some data on that you want to keep so transfer that to a DVD or CDs or even onto your XP drive, before wiping and installing XP on it.
Once you have a working version of XP on what will be your new master, you can use a combination of XPs Disk Manager and Partition Magic to move data to where you want on the drive that currently has C and E partitions on, delete the partitions with the 2 XP installations on and then recreate them and or/merge them :)
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This looks quite a simple guide, Dave. :)
http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/clean_install.htm#b
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I think i'll try that sandra. the slave is 60Gb so easily big enough. if i install XP under NTFS i won't be able to read my data from the slave drive (fat32) will i ?? copying it all to cd isn't really a viable option, there's too much.
Simon when i tried to do a new installation it wanted to install a second XP OS, mind you i didn't know my a**e from my elbow by this stage :P
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XP can see NTFS or FAT Dave, its the OS that is the limiting factor in that 95/98 and ME cant see NTFS, if you are going to end up with just XP on theres no problem doing it in NTFS.
I forgot to say that from your earlier post I think you are still not with me re the Program Files bit :(
Sorry if I wasnt clear enough before but the Program Files Folder that you are seeing in explorer is where the programs installed to previously and as the OS that you are using now hasnt got the links to them any more in the registery, it cant find them to make them available for use.
I wouldnt be keen on trying to sort out your drive that has XP on C and E partitions now by just trying another install as it can get awkward if the drive/partition letters arent as theyre supposed to be, so I think if you can do as I suggested in my last post that would be your better option :)
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Right i'll try that, XP on the 60 Gb drive as ntfs. then i'll reconnect the slave with the dodgy partitions.....deep breath
no more dual boot for me either ;D
all the advice is very much appreciated sandra and simon ;)
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Chapter 10. i put the 60 gb (ME) drive as master. the cd won't boot so i ran the ME startup disc to get into dos.
found the i386\WINNT files on the XP cd. started ok but then said smart drive not installed, do you want to continue. as i've no idea what smart drive is (s.m.a.r.t is enabled on the disc normally...if this is the same thing) i continued.
anyway i carried on, loaded loads of files then had the message "please wait while setup copies files to hard disc".
there were no more messages, the hard drive light was permanently on. after 45 mins i decided nothing was happening and did alt ctrl del.
now when i switch on i get three boot options, none work
"ME" following file missing "Windows root\ system32\hal.dll
"XP Install" cannot find end user licensing sgreement press
f3 to quit
"XP" cant read from selected boot disk.
i'm back on the xp drive now, thoroughly fed up and feeling very out of my depth. :'( :'( :'(
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H Dave, I cant really understand why your are having all these problems, you werent a blonde in a previous life were you ;)
Have you managed to save the data that you wanted to save from your 60 gig drive, either to your XP drive or to another partion on your 60 gig drive ?
If so set your 60 gig drive as a single master, disconnect the XP drive, use the ME boot disk to be able to use Fdisk and format either the primary partition, (if you have your data saved to a second partition), or format the whole drive if you have moved your data to the XP drive already.
Then just do a clean install with XP which will allow you to select the size of partition that you would like it installing on.
I think that you are somehow missing reading some of the options, or misinterpreting them, during installation of XP.
Dont forget after booting from your ME boot disk to reset the bios to boot from teh CD rom :)
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After our phone call Dave and you explained that you had XP installed on the second partition of your slave drive then this would have been the boot.ini that should have worked :
[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)rdisk(0)disk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)
\WINDOWS="Windows ME"
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(2)
\XP="Windows XP"
We (Scrumpy Jack and me), had summised that your XP OS was on the first partition of the second drive, so the information would have had the pc looking for an OS on the first partition not the second one :(
Anyway its hopefully academic now as you are going to wipe your 60 gig drive and install XP on that as the single OS for the pc :)
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After our phone call Dave and you explained that you had XP installed on the second partition of your slave drive then this would have been the boot.ini that should have worked :
I've got to say,
If Dave had posted the HDD and partition arrangements on his PC. Plus on what HDD/partitions ME and XP were installed, Sandra and Scrumpy Jack would have had it sussed in no time.
Anyway there is always a positive in any situation however bad it may appear. And I think on this occasion it is apparent, information is KING, and if peeps take from this thread that conclusion, it has been a worthwhile exersize.
Sandra.......accept the PC-Pals medal of patience
Dave ........put this long pointy hat on and go stand in the corner. ;D ;) :P
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:) thanks for the help line support sandra ;), there could be a problem with getting the cd-rom to boot on startup but i'll check that first. the ME hard drive won't work now anyhow after my sterling efforts :-[ so wipeing it of ME forever is the best way. So what i intend to do (as i understood sandras advice) is....
1. disable all boot options bar cd-rom to check the xp cd will boot then restore original boot options.
2. use ME startup disc to run FDISK to.....
a. remove existing partition
b. create a new partition.
:P (do i bother with FORMAT afterwards or will XP do that) :P
3. boot with XP disc and let it format the partition (as ntfs :)) and hopefully get a lovely working OS.
Are there any glaring mistakes in my plans, please let me know of mistakes or omissions as i've messed up enough recently.
Thanks
dave the blonde :-*
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I assume you are starting from scratch Dave, and are consigining ME to the Bin, I mean why the hell would you want to keep it anyway.
Make sure all the "data" you wish to keep is on a partition OTHER than C:Drive, if your going to install XP on that particulare Hard Drive. If your data is on the the other drive it will be OK where it is, whatever partition it is on. Only have the Hard Drive you wish to install XP on and use as you Master Drive connected up inside your case. {this way, no matter how Blonde you are, it can only install to C:Drive on the HDD you want to use as Master ] :)
Set CD-Rom as first boot drive in Bios, with whatever HDD you chose to use as second boot option, then run setup from the XP CD. Choose clean install, delete existing C: Drive, create new C:Drive and format in NTFS, and install XP.
Assuming you have your data on the other drive, if you delete all partitions on the HDD you are going to use as the Master. And reformat as one partition in NTFS, your drives will be C:Drive [HDD], first CD-Rom D:Drive, second CD-Rom E:drive. If you then add your second drive,after installing XP they will be assigned new drive letters following on from E:
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Yes Tony i'm very much starting again ::). I want to wipe the drive clean of a messed up ME OS & botched XP installation, then have it with just one partition with XP on. then when all is well i'll reintroduce the slave. The bit i still don't understand is.....
i don't want to risk running straight from the XP disk bearing in mind there's a botched XP part installation already on.
i've been advised to run FDISK first, but.....
do i run FDISK to delete then recreate a single partition, then go straight to the XP disc
or
run FDISK to delete then recreate a single partition, then run FORMAT to format the partition as fat32 ??? (will FORMAT do ntfs)
Then go to the XP cd to allow it to format as ntfs and install windows.
(The link to the instructions simon gave seem to say the drive has to be partitioned AND formatted before running the CD)
I just want to get it 100% right this time. Do my babblings make any sense :P
p.s. part of my problem may have come from the apparent inability of the pc to boot from the cd-rom as first boot device. is it always the master device that will be accessed (dvd = master cd= slave on ide 2). i may have to get the xp install boot discs.
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Dave if you abit doubtfull about doing it straight from the XP CD, you can run FDISK, as it does not take long. Just delete every thing, I dont think there is a need to create a new Primary Drive, and or format it, but if you want to you can do. But in any case when you are installing XP, you will be given format options.
In Bios you will be given the Master CD-Rom drive as an option for "first boot" so I suggest you use that as first boot and your hard drive will be the "second boot" option, save and exit.
Pop in your XP CD and just follow the on screen instructions. it will give you the option to format in Fat32 or NTFS, choose the later. And as Sandra said, during the proccess it will reboot and you will see the "on screen boot from CD" option AGAIN. If you hit that choice again, all you will do is be starting the install process again, so just ignore it, and it will carry on with the installation it is currently in the procces of doing.
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The XP CD should allow you do do everything you need Dave, but as you said it seemed to start booting from the CD then booted from the hard drive, I suggested using the ME start up disk to format the drive completely so that it cant boot from anything but the cd rom as it wont have any files anywhere to do it other than on the cd :)
I am just wondering if you are missing the "Press any key to boot from CD rom" on your initial boot Dave ???
You must press a key to start the process off but as Tony says when it starts installing and subsequently reboots do not press any key when given that option again or you will be going round in circles :)
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Okey dokey :) If the cd-rom boot fails i'll get the XP install boot disks from the site simon suggested. ;)
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This page, a link from the page that Simon posted earlier, has a good pictorial guide for what the screen shows at each stage Dave.
http://www.blackviper.com/Articles/OS/InstallXPPro/installxppro1.htm (http://www.blackviper.com/Articles/OS/InstallXPPro/installxppro1.htm)
I suggest that you study each screen picture, especially the first page of pics, so you can see what to expect and what your options are, as I am certain that you missed a step or hit the wrong key during the previous attempts :)
Good luck :-*
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Thanks ;D