PC Pals Forum
Technical Help & Discussion => Self Building, Upgrading & General Hardware Help => Topic started by: cerebus on May 23, 2004, 17:51
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hey it's me again cerebus. As you may know i am planing on building a pc (and if you don't you do now) but i have a big problem a big problem indeed.
As i said i want to build a pc but i don't know much about them. The thing like technical terms and language e.g HTML and JAVA Script. And the things with modems and CPU's. Colud you help please i know i'm asking alot... :-\
cerebus
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HTML and JAVA are nothing to do with building a pc initially they are part of how you operate it once its up and running and it doesnt really matter if you never understand those terms, unless you are going to be a programmer ;)
CPU is the Central Processing Unit, the main chip that is the heart of your pc and determines how fast it runs.
Modems are the devices with which the pc connects to the internet via the phone line.
They can be internal PCI ones (a card that fits in the white slots on the motherboard inside your pc) or external, connecting in different ways, Serial, USB or Ethernet :)
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hey thanks sandra. So your saying if i get a more powerful CPU,good memory and a good processsor then my pc will run faster? Also if i get a PCI internal card will it fit into any motherboard? (maybey not the old ones)
I think i got a lot to learn. ::)
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You need to get the cpu, ram and mobo that are compatable with each other, PCI cards are universal and will fit in virtually any motherboard you are likely to get :)
A good starting point is to decide how much you want to spend in total for your pc then look around at the various parts and how much they are, bearing in mind that it may be better to get a good mobo with a slower than the maximum cpu that it will take now so that you can cheaply and easily upgrade it to a faster one in another year or eithteen months when the prices of the faster cpus will probably have fallen :)
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Bat gave these links in the very early days of Pals ;)yhey could be exactly what you are looking for :)
http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20020904/index.html
http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20020918/index.html
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sure thanks all ;)
i'm probably goin' to get an AMD Athlon mobo (i assume that stands for mother board) and an AMD Athlon processor too. depending on how much the cost is depends on how fast the CPU speed is an weather i buy it or not. :-\.
Another question i have (i think i know the answer and it may be stupid but here goes) if i want windos XP do i need a XP mobo or do i just need the XP software to install it on to my pc.
As i said before thanks, again. :)
cerebus
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Haden't noticed the significance before :)
For processors - XP is just the designation AMD gave to it's range. IIRC it stands for eXtreme Performance or some such marketing buzz phrase.
For software - Windows XP - the XP stands for eXPerience.
In other words you can run whatever operating system written for a '86 architecture you want on an Athlon processor e.g. Windows XP, Windows 95, 908,98SE, ME, Linux, BeOs etc.
In a similar vein you can run Windows XP on any machine based around the '86 chip. This can be an Athlon, Duron, Celeron, Pentium (1,2,3,4), Cyrix etc.
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you may think i'm realy stupid for asking but ermm... whats an '86 chip??? ???
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Good question, Cerebus! ;)
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All the latest processors are based on the original Intel 8086 chip released way back when Noah was a boy and Simon was in his 20s ;D ;D
As Dack says:-
This can be an Athlon, Duron, Celeron, Pentium (1,2,3,4), Cyrix etc.
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So if buy a AMD Athlon processor it will be based on the 8086 chip no matter what?
And also let me ask which processor(s) do yuo guys think is best and most reliable?
(no offence but i want to get this pc built asap but i wanted to ask the pro's which which components are best so i can put it together as i buy (so i don't buy i part fix it in then buy another part in a few months as my pc would be o.o.d by then anyways) Hope i'm not asking too mutch. :)
cerebus
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A bit of background first:
The 8086 chip gave a set of instructions - like a dictionary in simple terms - of instructions that the processor would understand. This meant that if the number "90" appeared then it would know to do a "NOP - a 'no instruction' or to wait for one processor clock cycle". This is different from the 68k series of processors used by Apple in that "4e71" was used for a "NOP" instead.
As time progressed there turned out to be a need for extra instruction/words in the dictionary that the chip could understand. These were designed for graphics and sound operations and were called MMX (MultiMedia eXtensions). AMD had their own version that was called 3dNow.
A further addition came with the SSE set (Streaming SIMD Extensions) which were designed for manipulating large amounts of data passing through the processor (e.g. from a video file).
Then came SSE2 which added a few more commands - mostly to do with manipulating bigger numbers.
Each PC based processor these days contains a set of these dictionaries/instructions but the important thing is THEY ALL HAVE THE 8086 SET.
This means software is written using the basic 8086 instructions but can then check to see what processor is included in the computer and chose different/more efficient bits of code depending on which is installed.
The best way of thinking about it is looking at the index in a computer instruction manual. The first page (the index) will be written in one language and it can tell you where to find the correct information in any number of other languages - e.g. Swedish is on page 7, Greek on page 23, English on 54 etc. You can then jump to the correct page and carry on. The information in each section is the same - it's just whichever dictionary the user is familiar with as to which one they use. Windows XP does a similar thing in that it runs the most efficient code for whatever processor you have fitted as it knows they all understand the basic 8086 instructions and can then run the appropriate.
Anyways......
I've got a 3.0G Pentium 4 machine and also a XP2500 Athlon machine here. Both are of a similar standard and both give similar performance. The Pentium 4 processor cost about £150 while the Athlon cost £60. I then overclocked the Athlon to give the equivalent performance to an XP3200 (by changing two settings in the Bios). Personally I like the Athlon processors and most machines I've built for people have had them in as they give the best performance for the money.
BTW1 the latest athlons are the 64 series and these require a different motherboard from the normal Athlons. These are 64bit processors whereas the Athlon XP and Pentium 4's are 32bit processors. You really need a different version of Windows XP for these processors as the normal versions don't have the correct dictionary/instruction set for 64 bit.
BTW2 you are always going to be out of date with whichever board/processor you buy - get used to it :)
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If i got a Athlon 64bit processor i would need an Athon mother board that supports its "dictionary/instructions". and how would i know witch version of XP i would need?
And what would i need to do if i wanted to get an Athlon XP3200 like you?
I still have a lot to learn an if any one can simplyfie all what dack said then i would be very pleased indeed (i don't cope well with complicated things they make my brain run round in circles :aarrgh: :brick:
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The standard AMD motherboards out now are for the standard 32 bit XP, which will take up to the XP3200 CPUs which are currently the top of the range as far as I know, I didnt check yesterday there may well be a faster one out today or tomorrow ;)
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So a standard AMD motherboard will take a XP3200 CPU? 8) Phew nearly lost it there! Lol.
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O.K I will get this case
http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=56133 (http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=56133)( I hope thats right)
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And before i tell you which mother board i will get can anyone one tell me what this says Pcchips KT266A SKT A DDR AGP Sound LAN USB 2.0 Retail Box
Or this
PcChips M848ALU SKT A SIS 748 400 DDR AGPx8 ATA133 6CH Sound/lAN/USB 2.0 Upto a 3.2+ CPU Motherboard in Retail Box
OR... Or... this?
PcChips SiS650GX SKT478 Onboard VGA/Sound/USB2.0/LAN Retail Box
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O.K I will get this case
http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=56133 (http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=56133)( I hope thats right)
As it says at the top of that page - thats just the panel for the side :)
Start here for cases with power supply
http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd3N1YmNhdGVnb3J5X3BhZ2U=&subcat_uid=337 (http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd3N1YmNhdGVnb3J5X3BhZ2U=&subcat_uid=337)
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And before i tell you which mother board i will get can anyone one tell me what this says Pcchips KT266A SKT A DDR AGP Sound LAN USB 2.0 Retail Box
Or this
PcChips M848ALU SKT A SIS 748 400 DDR AGPx8 ATA133 6CH Sound/lAN/USB 2.0 Upto a 3.2+ CPU Motherboard in Retail Box
OR... Or... this?
PcChips SiS650GX SKT478 Onboard VGA/Sound/USB2.0/LAN Retail Box
PC chips used to have a very bad reputation (one of their infamous tricks was putting fake ram chips in boards to make it seem as if you had more :o). These days they have a slightly better reputation though still not brilliant. - the first board you have there only supports the 266 bus speed and so would not work with any of the modern Athlon processors. e.g. XP2500.
The 848 is good though and has some decent reviews - the first review post on the ebuyer site also says what else he used to build a system.
You will of course need a graphics card to go with it.
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Yeah i know. ;)
So would you say that the 848 is the best out of those few?
Oh no! >:( That case looked nice too. :(
Oh well the ones on the link you gave me look cool too. ;D
So do the cases on the link you gave me come with power supplies?? oh well seems i have tochange my mind for this one
(https://www.pc-pals.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebuyer.com%2Fcustomer%2Fproducts%2Findex.html%3Faction%3Dc2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3%26amp%3Bamp%3Bproduct_uid%3D50990&hash=fe1fdc9585931f5f3b14b320639c34e99841e3c2)
And also the 848
(https://www.pc-pals.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebuyer.com%2Fcustomer%2Fproducts%2Findex.html%3Faction%3Dc2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3%26amp%3Bamp%3Bproduct_uid%3D51760&hash=4f58ab589ab2c83b9448fe566aab910250e994bb)
Well Eventualy i should be able to start building
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Yeah well you know what they say "Good things come to those who wait."(Well not to sure about those who haveto wait! ::))
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The 848 is a very good board for the price and a system built around it should last you for a good few months.
As to the cases - some come with power supply while some others don't. When you see the description if it mentions something like "300W" or "400W" PSU (which stands for power supply unit) then it should contain the power supply. Usually the higher power supply the better but anything from 300 upwards would be OK for the system you are going to build.
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A FEW MONTHS!!!!!!! :damn: >:(
No ofence but i was thinking a bit longr than a few months!
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from another topic i made i asked "what components are the best" Well i've had some answers (but not many)and Ketamininja told me he never had a problem with either AMD Athlon XP vs Intel Pent 4, he said (if he's right he said he's not sure but he thinks he's right) that Intel Pent 4 has DOUBLE the cache! and i was wondering what is cache? it sounds like the better it is the better the processor but i'm not sure.
Next about memory. Ketamininja said memory is crucial now thats a bit obvious but then he said he would also go for DDR 333 now this i dont know about? so erm... if you dont mind a bit of translation please.
There are more questions but i won't bother you with them anymore you will probably have had enough of them by now anyways. (especialy from me.You probably all think i'm thick.
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Cache (or L2 cache to give it its full name), is part of the CPU, the earlier CPUs didnt have much but the later ones are getting bigger and as K said the Intels have a larger cache at the moment than AMD, I think.
I think that cache in this circumstance works like a buffer so it speeds up the processing of data, so the bigger the cache the better :)
I think K was referring to memory from Crucial as being reliable and reasonably priced not that it was crucial in that sense ;)
The 333 is the speed of the memory dictated by the motherboards FSB, the usual ones around now are 266, 333 and 400, also known as PC 2100, PC 2700 and PC 3200 respectively.
The higher the speed the better :)
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So do you think the PC i'm makin' will last a few months or longer.
And if it lasts a few months what should i change to make it last longer?(More 1 year standard)
And if intel pent have a better cache than AMD would you reccomend pent 4 Or AMD for a games/Music/internet/e-mail type PC?
Thnx. ;)
cerebus! 8)
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When Dack said "Last a few months" he was meaning that it would play any games and run any programmes that were likely to come out in the next few months, not that your pc would break down and need replacing after a few months :)
PCs are "old" technology the day after they are built as there is always something newer, faster, bigger, better just around the corner and unless youre very rich its impossible to always have the latest one :(
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My home built PC is now nearly two years old, and even though I didn't use the highest spec components, it still does everything I want it to do, and plays the latest games. I don't think you need to spend £300 on a graphics card, or have the biggest hard drive in the world, but that's just me. Memory is important, as is the CPU and Motherboard, but in my opinion you don't need to spend more than £100 at the most for a good graphics card, and you will never need much more than a 60Gb or 80Gb hard drive, unless you are intending to store the entire Lord Of The Rings trilogy, or whatever, on your computer, without putting it onto discs.
This is just my opinion, it might be claptrap, and others may say different, so don't take too much notice of me! ;) ;D
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I was being a little tongue in cheek when I said it would last a few months :)
I meant it would keep you happy for a good few months until you want to upgrade again (as newer more demanding games etc. appear).
Of the four machines I've got here at the moment - all are similar spec to the one you are looking at building and I don't forsee a need to upgrade any of them in the near future (though an extra wireless network card could be useful ;)) Two machines are Pentium 4 based while the other are Athlon XP2500 based. The major difference in performance is due to the graphics card these days.
A good graphics card that would last you for about 18months+ is any of the Radeon 9800XT (or PRO) that are around at the moment. Cost is about £120. They were the top of the range cards until about 2 months ago when the new Radeon 800 and NVidia Geforce 6000 came out.
There are two types of cache - L1 and L2. L1 is built into the chip and L2 is in a seperate chip (but usually attached directly to the processor these days)
Cache is just memory that is attached to the processor and is used to store the program as it's running. This is fast memory that runs at the same speed as the processor in most cases and so the processor can then get the next instruction as quickly as it can without having to wait for the (usually slower) external RAM. As your program is running, it is taken into the internal cache memory - if you have 512K then this means you can have 512K of program ready to run. Unfortunately programs tend not to run like that :) and so if it needs a bit of memory that is outside the 512K then it has to wait for the external memory anyway.
Athlons and Pentiums have the same amount of L2 cache these days (512K).
I'd go for the Athlon system.
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Phew! thats good to hear.
Right so if AMD and pent are both (literaly) the same then i assume it would be o.k if i bought the cheapest of the two?
And with the L1 cache and L2 cache if L2 is not built in is the external memory? If it is would it be better to go for a processor with the L1 built in chip rather than the L2 seperate chip?
If its alright (as in if it runs well enough and fast enogh without crashing) i'll build a Quite cheap one use it for a while then sell it make some profit on it with the money i already earn and build a more expensive on then. 8)
This way i can keep building 'n' selling till i have one thats not too O.O.D.
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yes yes its me (again) all that i sed in my last reply scrap it all. ;)
i have finaly got round to ordering my components to build my pc :D (yay) this is how the price stands (bearing in mind it's not modded and its just basic standard so far. ie. everything i need to get using it)
the price:£148 (i think that includes shipping and stuff too)
so i think not a bad price to start my fist pc and i think i got some pretty good stuff too.
:D 8)
yes well thnx again and i'll be back again soon for more info or opinion's c ya all
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Hey cerebus from reading all this it seems you are having a few problems so thought id clean up a fewo f them for you.
Mobo (Motherboard) This is the centre of everything, makes sure everything works together. If any thing is going to notbe compaterable it will not be so with your motherboard.
CPU (Porcessor) This do's all the brain work, calcualtions, the faster the chip the faster your PC. The processor has a certain FSB (Front Side Bus) You need to cheack with your motherboard that it supports that FSB. Also the socket wil paly a part in if the chip will fit. It you have a 64bit processor then it will either need a socket 754, 939 or 940 compatible motherboard (each number is how many pins the CPU has/how many holes on the motherboard).
RAM (Memory) Comes in a few forms as Sandra mentioned speeds. 266, 333, 400 which are also known as PC2100, PC2700, PC 3200. Once again cheack with your mobo that it supports that speed of memory (Think the latest is 550 PC4400). Its general job is to store the last bunch of calculations so when needed again it cant exicute them a lo faster than the CPU working them out again. The more RAM the faster the computer will go.
GFX Cards (Graphics Cards) Do's what it says on the tin, puts the output to the monitor. Now some mobo have it onboard but its very poor if you want gaming, but just for internet and office use its fine. Two things to look out for the amount of onboard memory and the speeds. The latest have 256mb onboard the more memory the more it can rember quick the computer. And memory and VPU (the processor chip on the card) speeds, these are givin in MHz the bigger the better. There are 3 types, PCU, AGP and PCIe. PCI is prob the most uncommon as its not really much good any more. AGP noe comes in 4 speeds 2x, 4x and 8x, each AGP GFX Card has a AGP rating so cheack with your motherboard that it supports that rating. And PCIe this is the latest (PCIexpress) your motherboard needs a PCIe slot if your planning on haveing a PCIe card but most people still ahve AGP as its more freindly on the pocket :)
Just one more thing you aint touched on yet it is a CPU cooler (Heat Sink an Fan) you need one of these to keep your CPU cool. Each cooler has a rating up to what chip it can keep cool so make sure that the one you buy can keep cool the chip you got. Also some coolers only fit certian sockets so make sure it fits the socket on your motherboard.
Hope this clears a few things up any questions just ask.
That sounded ok didn't it pc-pals? ;D