PC Pals Forum
Technical Help & Discussion => Apple, Linux & Open Source Software: Help, News & Discussion => Topic started by: mistybear on July 25, 2007, 09:30
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http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS8124627492.html
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What a load of tosh!
Gill
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:laugh: i like that - how is it tosh Gill? It is just pointing out that the common reasons that people quote to not using linux are daft.
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That article is just patronising, sarcastic propaganda which sneers at people who report valid issues with Linux. It is not based on any valid data whatsoever. No matter what the author of the article says, Linux is not as simple to use or as well supported as Windows. If it was, everyone would opt for the free OS instead of the commercial one.
Linux is complicated, difficult to set up (if you want it to do the range of tasks that Windows will undertake, and most people do seem to want that), and it doesn't have enough applications. Insofar as security is concerned, I'm not qualified to comment but with so few people using Linux it's unlikely to have its weaknesses exposed anyway. The issue with cost is irrelevant; if the application doesn't support your needs, price won't be a consideration.
Gill
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That article is just patronising, sarcastic propaganda which sneers at people who report valid issues with Linux.
I agree about the patronising tone, I though that reading it - but I expect it was written to linux users.
Linux is not as simple to use or as well supported as Windows.
Hmm, I don't agree with you on that front. Todo the day to day thing Linux is as easy as Windows - I have a group of elderly people who use Linux on a daily basis at my local church centre to check their email and generally browse the net and type things up. If linux is setup on a machine (like most get windows) most will not have a problem using it (did anyone when they first used windows? we are a bit conditioned to use it now). As for support, I would argue it is pretty well supported, but not in the same or necessarily the easiest way (i.e. there is not a debian support number charging you £2 per min). There are countless Linux forums - and most distro's have detailed support groups... this is how linux is developed!
Linux is complicated, difficult to set up
It is no more complicated than Windows to do the basic stuff. To setup, well it probably still is a bit more complicated but not much.. most now have very detailed graphical installers that are far superior in use than the XP one for example. I can setup a Ubuntu machine from scratch in under 20 minutes now, with everything installed - all this for the default installer. It works exactly the same as the Windows install cd and to be honest if anyone can install windows they will not have a problem installing SUSE, Ubuntu or Mandravia (and countless other distros).
and it doesn't have enough applications
huh, not sure I follow that... it has countless - and they range over all ranges, it just doesnt have all the big name applications that people are neccessarily familar with (but they will if they use linux for any time). It is now also pretty trivial, through a program called Wine, to install most windows applications without much hassle (if any) - e.g. photoshop just installs and runs fine.
Linux it's unlikely to have its weaknesses exposed anyway
I'd agree with you on this to an extent but most servers run Linux so if the hacks were out there they would still be developed...
Hmmm ... maybe I should run a series of how-to's on these things.. and try and convince you all, but alas I dont really have the time at the moment.
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Apart from the most adventurous, with time on their hands, I can't honestly see anyone converting to Linux, from a perfectly well functioning Windows set up. That said, it's always good to try out new things, and learn from it, but, unfortunately, these days, everything has to be quick and easy, and for most people, Windows is the 'ready meal', whereas Linux takes a cookbook, and some preparation, to get it together.
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Apart from the most adventurous, with time on their hands, I can't honestly see anyone converting to Linux, from a perfectly well functioning Windows set up. That said, it's always good to try out new things, and learn from it, but, unfortunately, these days, everything has to be quick and easy, and for most people, Windows is the 'ready meal', whereas Linux takes a cookbook, and some preparation, to get it together.
well the same could be said about XP to Vista (or whatever in the future). I think that XP will be the last major windows distro I for doing things apart from games. I really think there is lots to be gained by people taking up Linux... and it doesnt take too long to boot up a cd version.
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Fair comment. I did toy with the idea last year, but it was just one of those things that stayed on the back burner.
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I love my new linux based satellite receiver but I access it from my XP pc to set it up and ge it working properly :)
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It's an old story. Those who can do something often fail to comprehend why others have difficulty.
The big difference between M$ developers and Linux developers to my mind is that it's in M$s best economic interests to make its products as user friendly as possible. Linux developers don't have the same financial incentive so they tend not to go that extra mile for users who are less adroit than them.
Gill
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well you are right Gill - I dont find it hard how people find it difficult to do these things.. however I feel that if people can cope and deal with the microsoft crap they will easily be able to cope with the world of linux...
but I really dont agree with you on
Linux developers don't have the same financial incentive so they tend not to go that extra mile for users who are less adroit than them.
I really think Linux developers really do go that extra mile to make it better for users - they go for open source generally so it can be improved by the users, making it freely availabe and editable... of couse we are not talking about users who would do this. The users we are talking about want something simple and easy to use, I really think that linux over the course of the last few years has really put alot into this and the developers have worked hard to produce distro's and packages that are easy to use for the average computer user. Economic is not the only reason to make things user friendly... there is always the intelligent fight issue...
Oh I'd also aruge the MS has good enough reason to make certain things very hard to do.. so that you pay for the better version or you pay for support staff.
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:laugh: i like that - how is it tosh Gill? It is just pointing out that the common reasons that people quote to not using linux are daft.
I knew you would get it Sam. ;) I only posted it as a bit of fun..... ;D
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yeah, i guessed ;D .. though it has sparked off interesting discussions ... something for a first on the linux board, so well done :thumbs:
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I'm perhaps being a little harsh here. If only all computer component producers were required to make their products compatible with a Linux distribution! I'm sure I'd be using Ubuntu right now if it wasn't for problems using my ISP or drivers for my TV card and graphics pad. That said, which Linux version would manufacturers choose? One of the great advantages in using Windows is product compatibility.
Few people mind a bit of fiddling around to get hardware up and running but the command line interface is downright intimidating! It also uses language which the average computer user doesn't understand. I wonder if more people would take up Linux if it used a different interface or if it was easier to find a 'CLI for Dummies' guide :) .
Gill
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'CLI for Dummies' guide
Not a bad starting point: http://www.linuxcommand.org/index.php
And a very good guide for all things ubuntu: http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Feisty - this actually gives you the commands to do most tasks that are a bit demanding - I use this as reference all the time when I'm messing with drivers and hardware.
Few people mind a bit of fiddling around to get hardware up and running but the command line interface is downright intimidating!
as that article said most do have graphical (control panel esq) interfaces now, some much better than others, SUSE's and Madravia's are the best but Ubuntu's isn't bad.
That said, which Linux version would manufacturers choose? One of the great advantages in using Windows is product compatibility.
On this matter - well they could just make sure the drivers were fine for the core linux kernel.. which is the same for all (good) distro's, they might use earlier or later versions of the linux kernel but it is standard, they could choose a version to support. In fact most manufacturers are increasingly supporting linux and nvidia for example put considerable effort into this... so hopefully in the not too distant future... I have to say I have never had a problem with a dirver, but then again I use pretty standard things
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That seems to be a very good guide, Sam. Thanks :) .
Unfortunately, it's not the solution. My father could take his motor car to pieces and reassemble it. He was from a generation of mostly male drivers who believed it was essential that any car owner should be able to do this. Nowadays, the vast majority of car owners don't know how to do anything more than refueling and checking the tyres. Cars are much more sophisticated than they were in my father's day and perform much better. We wouldn't want to limit ourselves to the vehicles our fathers had (well, ok, Sandra would ::) :) ) because modern vehicles are more convenient and allow us more free time.
If people are prepared to get into the mechanics of their computers, then Linux is for them. However, the vast majority of computer users won't do this and would rather pay to have something served up which obviates the need to go 'under the bonnet'. There are more Ford Focuses being sold today than Morris Minors and it would ill-behoove a Morris Minor drivers to speak of Ford drivers in the same way as the author of that article speaks of people who don't operate Linux. He's just an inverted snob. Frankly, the attitude of people like him seeems quite prevalent in the world of Linux and it deters me from making the effort to learn more about the OS. It's not a club I'd want to join.
Gill
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well some of us aren't like that... I can reassure you that many normal people just use linux because it is convenient and given to them. I really think it would be short sighted to just stay with windows (and indeed with linux) as the computing world is developing so fast it is good to keep your eyes open.. also I strongly believe that linux is rapidly becoming as easy as windows for the average user, maybe not there yet.. but soon it will be... if people gave it a chance.
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You're certainly a cut above the average Linux exponent, Sam. I wouldn't have dared express those sentiments anywhere else.
Slightly off-topic, whatever happened to the idea that Dell was going to sell computers with Linux? That would have introduced it to a lot more people. Indeed, if I thought that a company like Dell was supporting Linux I'd be much more inclined to delve into it further.
Gill
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Dell does come with linux
they also will install windowsxp pro
ive seen both in local stores
ive been using suse10.2 it is as easy to use as windows xp
enough programs come with it that the average user should have no problems at all
on the disc are many more programs that install with one button click
its as close to windows as any ive seen
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the linux dell's dont seem to have made it to the uk yet.. I've been intrigued to see how much they will charge for one... I was about to post about this in the linux thread as there are some interesting developments, I'll do that in a minute...
oh.. another reason to get linux from dell - it will stop them putting all the crap on they do with windows...
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You're certainly a cut above the average Linux exponent, Sam. I wouldn't have dared express those sentiments anywhere else.
and why thank you :D
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oh.. another reason to get linux from dell - it will stop them putting all the crap on they do with windows...
Will it? I expect there's plenty of other crap they could put on it.
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Far be it for me to throw in my threepennorth... (http://www.askreamaor.com/linux-and-unix/things-were-tired-of-hearing-from-linux-users/) ;D
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wow.. now that is even more patronising, though funny...
My system uptime is now 9 million millenia, 8 parsecs, and sixteen seconds! That?s about as long as the rest of us have had our earplugs in so we can?t hear you. Incidentally, some of us are too busy using our computers to worry about how many milliseconds they?ve been up.
f***ing idiot a parsec is distance.. if you are going to rant about things make sure that some linux geek out there isn't gonna notice that!
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oh and gill is this the type of unix person..
(https://www.pc-pals.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi182.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx36%2Fstarrydude%2Fdt950624.png&hash=95c5492ac3105d6f06f5ca0fac16ed8ff0134b96)
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I wouldn't know, Sam. I've never met one in real life - I can't help wondering if they only exist in cyber-space. Perhaps linux might be a huge conspiracy theory and nothing more; a computerized version of "Mornington Crescent".
;)
Gill
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I remember when i learned, hands on, how to install 98se and setup the drivers and the little applications in my first computer maintance class. I also remember attending a lecture from a linux guru during the same year. His advice for learning linux was R.T.F.M. Now i'm all for reading the manual, BUT every time i dive into a linux manual i find myself having to sift through 50 pages of history, followed by 100 pages of commands, before i can start to get to the part that actually talks about administrating the terminal. Even then most of the time the manuals always assume that you already know all the easy steps to installing simple things like drivers. After all this is linux, if your smart enough to install windows, you should be just fine installing linux.
My biggest gripe with linux is every support manual I've ever come across is bloated with 10000 facts that aren't necessary to installing and configuring the installation. I have yet to find a simple instruction manual on installing drivers. If i can install windows completely in under 30 mins, i should be able to do the same thing with linux without having to RT-2"-FM. Manuals are for reference. When i really needed to find something out in windows I looked at the help or went online to look for others to answer the question. With windows your talking to average people online with similar questions who talk with average terminology who are more than happy to answer a question. Hell, PC-pals is one of those places. But, let the average person trying to attempt a linux conversion go onto a support forum and you find a bunch of smug "patronizing" pricks who nitpick of the question if they decide to answer the question at all. I've been to quite a few linux forums and the one thing they aren't short of are questions. The one thing they are short on are people to answer them. Thats probably why the vast majority of people that do answer what few questions deserve their attention come across like they are gracing the thread with their massively superior computer knowledge.
I know i have an axe to grind. I have installed debian, mandrake/mandriva, and i currently have xubuntu installed on a laptop. During my 4 years of experimenting with linux, I have just been searching for a simple howto or manual that will explain the driver installation. Maybe i'm a slow fool, but if anyone who can install windows and fix win machines for a job for 2 years can't do it what are the chances for the average public.
Things that haven't worked for me.
KDE tends to crash all the time.
Can't play a none decrypted store bought dvd.
Linux doesn't support half the printers on the market.
The man pages raises more questions then it answers.
There are probably more agitations that i have with linux, but its been awhile since my last attempt. Oh yeah, those elderly folks that use linux, are just doing that, using it. They aren't having to install and configure it. Thats that information that normally stumps people. Just double clicking an icon to surf the net is something a chimpanzee can do.
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:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Very well said, Bob.
Gill
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There are probably more agitations that i have with linux, but its been awhile since my last attempt. Oh yeah, those elderly folks that use linux, are just doing that, using it. They aren't having to install and configure it. Thats that information that normally stumps people. Just double clicking an icon to surf the net is something a chimpanzee can do.
... but how many people do exactly the same with windows? which is why people have jobs maintaining windows installs.
Can't play a none decrypted store bought dvd.
I did have this problem in the past, but totem and VLC do this fine... and have for a while now, I think... I normally use winamp or something installed through wine (as I like it).
KDE tends to crash all the time.
I personally hate KDE, but it does depend on what version you have used it on, I am a gnome person btw.
The man pages raises more questions then it answers.
AGREED!!! .. and I have more than a working knowledge of linux, I really think these need to be simplified if linux is going to promote the commandline to general users.
Linux doesn't support half the printers on the market.
Probably correct, though I dont really know about this - I use a laser printer at work which is on a print server and at home my EPSON works fine with Linux, can't say I have come across this problem, but it makes sense.
Oh and I agree about the support forums being crap and useless.. oh and I cant tell you have to install all drivers, there isn't really a one way todo it... and I tend to not to have to do this... I normally find what I need online though