PC Pals Forum
Technical Help & Discussion => Self Building, Upgrading & General Hardware Help => Topic started by: Tony on July 15, 2003, 18:36
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Right a few questions for the learned,
I have today installed an extra HDD, primarily so that I can back up my OS /programs/data in case of HDD failure.
Now Disk No 1 a 40GB HDD is split into C: drive 30GB [9 GB used] status: Primary boot. And D: drive 10GB [1GB used] status: Primary extended logical.
Disk No 2, the new 30GB HDD is split into [unallocated Primary size 7.8MB] with extended Primary split into logical partitions G: and H: and for now unused, but obviously I can have more partitions.
Presently Disk No 1 has W2K OS and programs are on C: drive, and my data and files are on D: drive. Now whilst I will be saving a compressed image of C: and D: drives onto the new HDD [I have PQ Drive Image] lets just consider if the 40GB HDD does go belly up.
I was thinking: ::)
Would it be possible to set Disk No 2 up, so that I could restore/copy the saved image of Disk No 1 onto two drives on Disk No2 ?
Drives set up right now as Disk No1 Master, Disk No2 Slave, is it possible to set Disk No 2 up as bootable with W2K installed on it also, I mean as I?m I right in thinking as long as Disk No1 is bootable it would boot the OS on that disk. What I?m asking is, if Disk No 1 was not bootable either corrupted OS or HDD failure would it boot off Disk No 2 if the boot sequence was C:/A:/ G: or I?m I talking complete bollards.
If bollards is the answer, if Disk No1 fails will I have to whip open the case and set Disk No2 to Master and swap the cable connectors over, and make a primary active partition using Partition Magic.
Well let the lesson begin :)
PS: choices with HDD's Master / Slave / and Cable enable, first to are self explanatory but why the option 'Cable Enable'
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There is a better way ...
If you can forget about your D: partition, you should be able to "mirror" your C: partition to the new drive.
A mirror is an exact duplicate of the partition which the operating system keeps up-to-date automatically.
You should be able to find all the information you need here (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;302969)
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PS: choices with HDD's Master / Slave / and Cable enable, first to are self explanatory but why the option 'Cable Enable'
Cable Enable - is that the same as Cable Select?
Cable Select enables a system where the drive on the furthest end of the IDE cable is Master and the drive connected to the central connector is Slave.
All the info you need (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCS-c.html) from www.pcguide.com
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Cheers Adept,
I'll look at that, don't you need a Raid enabled board to 'Mirror' or is that why you are saying ditch D: drive.
Sorry I meant 'Cable Select' so if both HDD are set to 'Cable Select' it's the cable that determines which is Slave and Master, jeez I learn something new every day thanks Adept your a star ;)
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don't you need a Raid enabled board to 'Mirror' or is that why you are saying ditch D: drive.
No that's the beauty of a "proper" OS like Win2K and XP Pro. The mirroring and striping (if you want it) is built-in. Of course the performance is slightly better if you have a RAID controller.
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Thanks pal for the quick replies,
Right I'll give it a go, first of I'll merge C: and D: drives on Disk 0. Then I'll make Disk 1 unallocated space and see how I go on.
Settings on the HDD's Master and Slave at present, that OK or should they be 'Cable Select' ?
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Hang on ...
Don't merge the 2 drives Tony the mirrored partitions need to be the same size.
Leave C: at 30GB so it matches your 30GB second drive :)
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Master and slave are fine Tony but dont forget that the partitions on your primary drive will now be C and and H not C and D if your drives are in as you said in your first post and the second drive will have G and D with G being the primary partition on your second drive :-*
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Hang on ...
Don't merge the 2 drives Tony the mirrored partitions need to be the same size.
Leave C: at 30GB so it matches your 30GB second drive :)
Back after complications >:( to read this :( anyway I could not merge the two drives Adept because I kept getting Error 58 in PM which said >Unable to write to the boot sector, virus Protection software may be running. Just kept saying press any key to escape, but just kept going around in the same circle, till I reverted to Goback. Plus I could not revert Disk No1 to 'unallocated' as it stated on the Microsoft site , it needed to be pior to mirroring. How do I do that ?
OK first time I attempted merging C and D drives Norton was running but I disabled it, and boot virus protection was not enabled in Bios setup, but I still kept getting those error messages. In the end it was all begining to hang, so I have whipped out the extra drive and reverted my system back 3and a half hours, all ok now.
Sandra your confusing me, I read when W2K assigned a drive letter it stuck with that drive.
Anyway I'll go back and read that Microsoft site, and if Disk No1 indeed needs to be unallocated, i'll have to sort that first.
Plus if I leave D: drive on Disk 0, but it is not going to get mirror, I will have to move its contents over on tho the C: Drive. If I knew you could mirror without a raid board I woukld have bought a 40GB HDD instead of a 30GB drive, oh well. I any case mirroring ain't happened yet ??? :)
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Plus if I leave D: drive on Disk 0, but it is not going to get mirror, I will have to move its contents over on tho the C: Drive. If I knew you could mirror without a raid board I woukld have bought a 40GB HDD instead of a 30GB drive, oh well. I any case mirroring ain't happened yet ??? :)
Tony ignore that Sandra - she's just trying to confuse you ::)
When you mirror your c: partition it will remain your c: partition; your d: partition will also remain the same, simply not mirrored.
The Drive 1 will have to be unallocated before you can use it as a mirror. This should just be a question of deleting the existing partition using the Windows 2000 Disk Manager.
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As far as I am aware Tony any windows OS designates a drive letter in the lowest available that is presently unused.
Therefore yopu had C and D on your single primary hard drive and I assume E and F were your CD/DVD rom and CD writer.
When you installed the second hard drive as two partitions it will have assigned the primary partion on your second drive as D ( changing your original D partition to the next available letter which in this case would be G ).
Then leaving the second partion on your secondary hard drive to be H.
Windows will not allow a drive letter to be changed if it has an OS on it,as I found out when I tried to do it with mine,otherwise when that os is "looking" for something on C/program/xxxxx it would actually then be searching for it on C drive and not the drive where it had been moved to ::)
If you want to merge your original C and D drives then uninstall your second drive first and reboot with the original drive in,then I would use PM to make the C drive a reasonable sized partition for you to mirror it or else you are going to have backed up successfully in case of any disaster but have no more spare capacity than you started with :-*
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Now Adepts confusing me too :'(
Are you saying that I am wrong Adept in my last post re the drive letters on two drives of two partitions each ???
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Tony ignore that Sandra - she's just trying to confuse you ::)
When you mirror your c: partition it will remain your c: partition; your d: partition will also remain the same, simply not mirrored.
The Drive 1 will have to be unallocated before you can use it as a mirror. This should just be a question of deleting the existing partition using the Windows 2000 Disk Manager.
Cheers Adept, I'll pop the extra HDD back in and get it back to unallocated, plus I'll make C: drive exactly the same size as the Unallocated drive, And have a go from there.
Sandra means well ;) oh your there :-* if you read the PDF doc in PM it tells you about how W2K assignes drive letters. Right I'm off to meddle again , it's all grist to the mill as they say. ;D
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Sandra I just read the end of my last post, it sounded curt, I didn't mean it to be sweetie pie I hope you know that :-* Do you know I have forgot half of what I've read or done tonight ::)
I'll be back ............I think. ;D
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No I'm not Sandra ::) I would never disagree with you :-X ;)
I'm sure you are right about the drive letters. It's just that it isn't relevant for Tony's mirroring situation ;)
Tony is going to be mirroring the c: partition from drive 0 onto drive 1. Any partitions which are currently on drive 1 will need to be wiped off so that the 30GB c: partition can be mirrored onto the 30GB drive 1.
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Thats ok Boss :-*
I thought that he was trying to merge C and D which with his second drive in place wouldnt work as they would then be on different drives ;)
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Hi Adept, pal :)
Can leave the contents of D: drive just where they are, for now ? Will it just mean that they wont be getting mirrod onto Disk No1 till I move them over ?
What if ;) I made C:drive 25GB and D: Drive 5GB, could I then mirror both of them onto Disk No1, just wanting to evaluate all my options.
I've unallocated Disk No1 Win Disk manager says its 28.63GB and PM says its 29.321.7 GB
He's gone to bed Sandra, well I suppose having a new job he has to be chipper and cheerfull, bright eyed and busy tailed first thing in the morning. ;D ;)
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Afraid its past Adepts bedtime Tony :(
Looks like I misunderstood what you were attempting to do earlier when you were on about merging C and D as I assumed that you had your second drive in place at the time and that it was already partitioned :-*
You may have to wait until the morning for a reply unless Lobo is around later.
I havent done any mirroring(apart from the old "mirror,mirror on the wall" thing when I was younger ;) ) ;D ;D ;D
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I havent done any mirroring(apart from the old "mirror,mirror on the wall" thing when I was younger ;) ) ;D ;D ;D
...and they all broke. ;D ;D :wahh: :wahh:
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...and they all broke. ;D ;D :wahh: :wahh:
Mine were all ok Simon,it was the ones in Serenitys house that she broke ;D ;D ;D
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:lol: She'll get ya, you know! Her and that black cat! ;D ;D
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@Tony
I just can not understand what you are trying to do my friend, could you possably put it into plain english?
If you are trying to create a Mirror set then read this
mirror set
A fault-tolerant partition created with Windows NT 4.0 or earlier that duplicates data on two physical disks. You can only repair, resynchronize, break, or delete mirror sets in Windows 2000. To create new volumes that are mirrored, use mirrored volumes on dynamic disks.
OK then you can not do this in W2k
What you need to do is create a dynamic disk
dynamic disk
A physical disk that can be accessed only by Windows 2000 and Windows XP. Dynamic disks provide features that basic disks do not, such as support for volumes that span multiple disks. Dynamic disks use a hidden database to track information about dynamic volumes on the disk and other dynamic disks in the computer. You convert basic disks to dynamic by using the Disk Management snap-in or the DiskPart command line utility. When you convert a basic disk to dynamic, all existing basic volumes become dynamic volumes.
NOTE
"all existing basic volumes become dynamic volumes"
OK, now you need To add a mirror to an existing simple volume (You can mirror volumes only on computers running Windows 2000 Server, Windows 2000 Advanced Server, or Windows 2000 Datacenter Server.)
I take it you are runing one of the above?
To open Computer Management, click Start, point to Settings, and then click Control Panel. Double-click Administrative Tools, and then double-click Computer Management.
You must be logged on as an administrator or a member of the Administrators group in order to complete this procedure. If your computer is connected to a network, network policy settings may also prevent you from completing this procedure.
Any existing simple volume can be mirrored onto another dynamic disk, as long as there is sufficient unallocated space on that disk. If you do not have a dynamic disk with enough unallocated space, the Add Mirror menu item is unavailable. (To verify you have enough space, right-click the disk, click Properties, and then check the size in Unallocated Space. This size may be slightly smaller than shown in the graphical and list views.)
Mirrored volumes are fault tolerant and use RAID-1, which provides redundancy by creating two identical copies of a volume.
You cannot extend a simple volume after it has been mirrored.
Both copies (mirrors) of the mirrored volume share the same drive letter.
If you just want to provide a backup drive then create a Norton Ghost image of your drive 0 and then you can burn it to your drive 1 and create a perfect copy compleate with O/S and programs.
Brian ;D
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@Tony
I just can not understand what you are trying to do my friend, could you possably put it into plain english?
Brian ;D
Nay one Lancashire Hot Pot not understanding another Lancashire Hot Pot, surely that cannot be true Brian ;D Anyway thanks for your input, and I?m sorry I missed you last night, but today?s another day, so here goes.
Plan A:
Was to do a backup image of drives C: and D: on Disk 0 onto Disk1.
Plan B:
Then the thought crossed my mind, what if Disk 0 failed, instead of hanging around waiting for a replacement, could I not install the back up image on to a bootable drive on Disk1 and be up and running again. But I never got an answer to Plan B.
Plan C:
Adept came up with the idea of ?mirroring? Disk 0 and Disk1, sounded interesting, so I was looking at that route.
But you say I need to be running on W2K server software to be able to do that, as I?m on W2K Pro, it looks like it?s back to Plan A or Plan B.
How?s that Brian, clear enough now? ;)
There were writing to boot sector issues, but I?ll not muddy the water with those at this point in time. I?ll face that particular issue if it becomes a problem when I try and implement which ever Plan I settle on.
So which plan is the most feasiable, baring installing W2K server software ?
Thanks one and all.
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Nah then lad thats better,
Plan A is still the best, do a drive image and save to the seond drive e.g drive O to drive 1, when creating the image make it in 650Mb chunks then write these images to CDs,
Now if the primary drive goes legs up you can reinstall all you progs and software to a new/other drive within 20 min
All reet lad
Brian :lol: :welldone:
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Nah then lad thats better,
Plan A is still the best, do a drive image and save to the seond drive e.g drive O to drive 1, when creating the image make it in 650Mb chunks then write these images to CDs,
reet thars saying have two back ups, one on Disk 1 and one on a set of back up CD's ?
Now if the primary drive goes legs up you can reinstall all you progs and software to a new/other drive within 20 min
You mean install on to a new HDD other then Disk 1?
Brian what's wrong with Plan B exactly?
It just seems a waste of a HDD to me, I was thinking I only need one drive on my main HDD. And I was thinking of making my 30GB HDD, into Disk 0, as it is SMART technology enabled. And making my 40GB HDD, Disk 1 with say a 10GB partition on it to store the compressed image of the 30GB HDD. And using the remaining 30GB on Disk 1 as a bootable partition where I could pop a saved copy of the contents of Disk 0. Still with me mate ;) Are there pitfalls with an arrangement like that, it's just as I'm at the non comitted stage I could experiment ::)
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(You can mirror volumes only on computers running Windows 2000 Server, Windows 2000 Advanced Server, or Windows 2000 Datacenter Server.)
Ah b%$£#~! :-[
Sorry for misleading you Tony. You can see that I spend most of my time with server versions of Win2K ;) I know XP Pro can definitely do mirroring and striping, so there's one reason for upgrading :D
Take Brian's advice Tony. Ghosting is the next best solution to your problem.
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I think either way would work ok Tony.
Just by backing up to CD it is a "belt and braces" way in case you get a virus or even a double drive failure or even if you get another PC then you could "Clone" if from your cd backups.
Having it ghosted to drive 1 would just mean you could cut out the loading it back from cd stage.
Of course the deciding factor would be how big the "image" that you want to back up is and how much you are prepared to use of your new,extra storage capacity if you decide to keep the image on your drive 1 after burning it to CDs :-*
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(You can mirror volumes only on computers running Windows 2000 Server, Windows 2000 Advanced Server, or Windows 2000 Datacenter Server.)
Ah b%$£#~! :-[
Sorry for misleading you Tony. You can see that I spend most of my time with server versions of Win2K ;) I know XP Pro can definitely do mirroring and striping, so there's one reason for upgrading :D
Take Brian's advice Tony. Ghosting is the next best solution to your problem.
Well Adept, I have the 'Disk Management' gubbins on my PC so I'm inclined to think mirroring is possible, erst will why would these help files be on my PC?
To add a mirror to an existing simple volume
Open Disk Management.
Right-click the simple volume you want to mirror, click Add Mirror, and then follow the instructions on your screen.
Notes
You must be logged on as an administrator or a member of the Administrators group in order to complete this procedure. If your computer is connected to a network, network policy settings may also prevent you from completing this procedure.
To open Disk Management, click Start, point to Settings, click Control Panel, double-click Administrative Tools, and then double-click Computer Management. In the console tree under Storage, click Disk Management.
You can mirror volumes only on computers running Windows 2000 Server.
Any existing simple volume can be mirrored onto another dynamic disk, as long as there is sufficient unallocated space on that disk. If you don't have a dynamic disk with enough unallocated space, the Add Mirror command is unavailable. (To verify you have enough space, right-click the disk, click Properties, and then check the size in Unallocated Space. This size may be slightly smaller than shown in the graphical and list views.)
Mirrored volumes are fault tolerant.
You cannot extend a simple volume after it has been mirrored.
The same drive letter is used for both copies (mirrors) of a mirrored volume.
Related Topics
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I think either way would work ok Tony.
Just by backing up to CD it is a "belt and braces" way in case you get a virus or even a double drive failure or even if you get another PC then you could "Clone" if from your cd backups.
Having it ghosted to drive 1 would just mean you could cut out the loading it back from cd stage.
Of course the deciding factor would be how big the "image" that you want to back up is and how much you are prepared to use of your new,extra storage capacity if you decide to keep the image on your drive 1 after burning it to CDs :-*
Hi Sandra,
I fancy trying Plan C, mirroring, but if not possible then Plan B. hehe. But first I think I will just try merging C: and D: drives on my 40GB HDD. The 30GB HDD is in the PC, unallocated and unconnected, so I'll see if I can get past this error 58 in Partition Magic. :)
PS: I have both drives set to 'Cable Select' so if I go the Plan B route I can just wip the cables over, if I understand 'Cable Select' correctly. I feel a rollocking coming on with the Her Outdoors.........ho dear ::)
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Well Adept, I have the 'Disk Management' gubbins on my PC so I'm inclined to think mirroring is possible, erst will why would these help files be on my PC?
You can mirror volumes only on computers running Windows 2000 Server.
I think that this confirms it Tony.
They are HELP FILES to enable you to do it if you have 2000 server running and are probably just part of the standard 2K series of help files :-*
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Why dont you install that new 2003 server prog you got Tony then you can give it a whirl ;)
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oh THAT, I forgot about that ;) I would have to make a partition for it, right? I may do that :-* :-*
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For anyone confused about "Mirroring/Striping and Ghosting" like me ::)
I have asked a question here :
http://pc-pals.com/index.php?board=50;action=display;threadid=5286
Which hopefully will explain the pros and cons and whys and hows in the near future once either Adept or Lobo or anyone else knowledgeable in such things gets a chance to answer it :-*
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"Well Adept, I have the 'Disk Management' gubbins on my PC so I'm inclined to think mirroring is possible, erst will why would these help files be on my PC?
To add a mirror to an existing simple volume
"If you don't have a dynamic disk with enough unallocated space, the Add Mirror command is unavailable"
I take it that you have a dynamic disk with enough unallocated space then Tony?
Brian ???
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"Well Adept, I have the 'Disk Management' gubbins on my PC so I'm inclined to think mirroring is possible, erst will why would these help files be on my PC?
To add a mirror to an existing simple volume
"If you don't have a dynamic disk with enough unallocated space, the Add Mirror command is unavailable"
I take it that you have a dynamic disk with enough unallocated space then Tony?
Brian ???
So are you saying, if I did have a dynamic disk with enough unallocated space, I could do it with W2K Pro?
I'm going of mirroring actualy, because if I suffer a virus attack or such like both mirrored Disk get it. Plan B is taking my fancy right now :)
But staying on the mirroring debate, if I made Disk 0 30GB and Disk 1 is 30GB unallocated, or swapped em around even, could I then not make Disk 1 dynamic through disk Management, what Adept was saying at the beginning of the thread. Or I'm I just being silly here. ;D
I'm doing now't till I have enough CD's to back it all up, Drive Image just keeps throwing up an error boxes 1603 and 1706. I suppose I best read up about Norton Ghost.
But I've assembled a nice chest of draws today ;D
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@Tony
Iwas going to refer you to this post http://pc-pals.com/index.php?board=50;action=display;threadid=5286 (http://pc-pals.com/index.php?board=50;action=display;threadid=5286) but I see that you have allready been there
Brian:brick: ;D
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Well as you know I was having trouble with error messages when I tried to use Partition Magic/Ghost or Drive Image. I suspected it was because GoBack was enabled. Unfortunately every time those aforementioned programs attempted to run, I had to abort them, and my PC hung. I got out of this problem by reverting my drive back to how it was prior to attempting to use those programs [using Goback ] So I was uneasy at the prospect of disabling GoBack , only to find it did not solve my probs with those programs, and I could not revert back.
So I installed W2K and all my security programs on my new drive and attempted to use PM and DI and they worked fine, installed GoBack and the error messages returned. Anyway that solved I practiced using PM and DI on that HDD before doing it on my HDD with its data on. After you have finished making changes with partition management software you can enable GoBack again. Must admit right on the last page of PM PDF docs, it said Goback had to be unabled when using Partition Magic ::)
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See Tony,you are never too old to learn :P
Glad you sorted :)
Could this be a first ??? A man who actually reads a "How to do things" manual ::)
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Oh we read em, but like the case in question I read it after I had sorted it ;D
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Anyway it is all sorted now,
I made both my existing and new HDD?s ?Cable Select? using the jumper settings.
Firstly on the ?live? 40GB Disk 0, I used Partition Magic to add another 10GB logical partition G: on which to store backup images. I then resized partitions C: and D: on the remaining 30GB. Then used Drive Image to make an image of C: and D: drives and stored it on G: drive. [ the image took about an hour to do]
Then with the 40GB HDD still in Disk 0 position [cable wise] I copied the image onto Disk 1 the 30GB drive. Now with error checking and write verifing enabled it took about four hours in total for about 9.5 GB content., it did it while I slept over night.
So because the 30GB HDD was in the Disk 1 position, the Primary boot partition become H: and the logical partition was I: Then when I swopped the HDD?s around so that the 30GB became Disk 0 and thous the active bootable drive, and the 40GB with the backup partition G: becoming in effect the slave HDD due to 'Cable Select' And with this the two corresponding drives on both HDD?s C: D: and H: I: swopped over, so in effect I'm always booting off C: Drive.
So now in the rare but likely event of the active bootable drive failing, I can be up and running with the 40GB HDD.
Brian and Adept,
I was tempted to try dynamic disking to mirror the drives. But I thought no, better to wait till I have enough CD's to make a remote copy ::) But if I was a betting man, I reckon you can mirror with W2K Pro ;)
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Bet you cant Tony :P
By the way I am glad that you noticed that the drive letters changed the way that I said they would ;)
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Ha ha Sandra,
not quite correct
I refer you to PDF docs Partition Magic page 21 [I think ] ;)
Explain logical drive G: being before Primary boot partiion H: and first logical drive I: on the same HHD when G: is the last Logical partion on tha HDD !!!!
W2K drive letter assignment is different to Win 95/98 drive letter assignment. C: and D: merely changed places with H: and I: because I changed the HDD's around phyisicaly via the cable structure. :-*
Mirroring!!! bet I can ;)
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Sooorrie page 20,
Windows NT/2000
quote: Once assigned however these drive letters do not change, regardless of changes to the hard disks or partitions in your system. The drive letters are 'sticky' so to speak, and reamian permanently assigned to the same partition. End quote
See Tony,you are never too old to learn
:P
;D ;D ;D
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Not fair :'(
You have the advantage of actually using 2K,I havent used that just 98SE and XP and in those windows versions the drive letters move with a mind of their own at times ;D
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"But if I was a betting man, I reckon you can mirror with W2K Pro"
You loose ;D
Its a server funtion
Brian :brick:
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:heehee: good game good game ;)
Are Sandra don't :'( pleeeease, look just nip over to my house with 10 write CD's [I've got five] to settle this mirror bet ;)
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I've got five
I didnt even have a cd writer untill almost 12 months ago Tony and I have gone through over 400cds since then and just last week I bought another 150 as I was down to my last 20 or so ( I got them at a good price though £27 for 150 at 48X write speed) ;D ;D ;D
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Just don't ask what she uses them for Tony ;)
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I don't have to ask Adept, She's a reet bobby dazzler is our Sandra :-* ;D