PC Pals Forum
Technical Help & Discussion => AV Lounge => Topic started by: Clive on December 26, 2003, 06:44
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During the next few days I intend buying a DVD recorder to replace a failed VCR. Some of the models appear to have HDD's whereas others do not. Does anyone know which is best?
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Well, you've had my recommendations. ;) I will also be following this thread closely, as I may well be in the market for one myself in the New Year.
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How about one of those panasonic ones, the ones that can record and play at the same time, I don't know how they do it but that'd be handy :)
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Yes, Simon already suggested the Panasonic. That doesn't have a HDD and I just wondered if there was any advantage in having one. I read somewhere that DVD recorders with hard drives also have to have a cooling fan which can increase the noise level quite a lot.
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I suppose they can store Programs on the HDD and you can either watch them from there or burn them to DVD. If you wanted that however you'd be better to get a PSX :)
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After havin my mpeg4 playable dvd player for a couple of months, I would wait until they bring a DVD recorder with hard drive, ethernet and mpeg4 capable.
That way you would be covered for all eventualities for the moment.
There are some with a hard drive, ethernet and also wireless connection to your router at the moment Clive but I am not aware of any that have the recordable dvd in plus the other features unless the latest Kiss ones do it (model 5400 I think).
It may also be worth waiting until the 9 gig recordable dvd players are around before you buy one as the current ones are only 4.7 gig :)
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As far as I can tell Clive this is about the best thing that is available now :
http://www.nickknows.com/index.html?target=dept_446.html&lang=en-gb (http://www.nickknows.com/index.html?target=dept_446.html&lang=en-gb)
Go to this one :
Kiss Technology DP-558 £ 499.38inc
It doesnt record onto DVD but this is better, as for most tv progs you dont want to save you can watch and erase from the hard drive and any that you want to save you can transfer to your PC via ethernet and burn onto a cd or dvd on there :)
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Thanks for all that research Sandra, but it has only served to confuse me more. I don't know if I really need all those technological capabilities as I only scratch at the surface of the technology I already have. For instance, my TV has picture in picture facility so I can watch two channels at the same time yet I never use it. I could go on and on ... and on. ;D What I really want, what I really really want, is something simple enough for myself and Mrs Clive to operate in a one touch operation to use just like a basic VCR. My existing VCR has index search, but do I use it? What do you think? Well actually I can't use it anyway because like most of my VCR's it's conked out. I actually remembered that I bought a combined DVD/VCR unit for the bedroom last May but hadn't got around to tuning it in. ;D Sorted!! But I'm still going to buy a DVD recorder for the home cinema setup in a day or so and I think I may go for that Panasonic as it's very slim. That may allow me to stack my other DVD player on top of it when I throw out the very chunky very useless Sony VCR.
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Do you intend to save a lot of stuff off the tv for ever Clive or just watch it later that day or over the weekend?
If you are going to save everything then a recordable dvd player may be the answer but to watch something and not keep it then a hard drive recorder makes more senseEspecially with the ability to burn on to your pcs DVD writer if it was something you wanted to keep.
It may be as well waiting for Lona to wake up from her overindulgences and ask how her daughter is going on with the recordable one that she got, the last time she mentioned it she wasnt very happy with the quality off playback from the recording that she made :(
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I think you might find this useful, Clive: http://hometheater.about.com/library/weekly/aadvdrecfaqa.htm
Particularly relevent to your question, is this part on page 2:
There are, several DVD recorders from a few manufacturers that include both a hard drive and a DVD recorder in the same unit. This type of system allows the user to copy raw footage or record a series a programs to the hard drive and then edit or copy smaller segments or the entire contents of the hard drive to a blank DVD. Also, another benefit of this type of unit is that if the DVD runs out of space during recording, the excess video is automatically recorded onto the hard disk, which, once again, can be copied onto another blank DVD at a later, more convenient time.
Like you, all I will want is something which works in the same way as a VCR, to record TV Programmes. If I understand it correctly, it seems, from the above quote, that one with a hard drive could be an advantage, in that if you could watch programmes you have recorded onto the hard disc drive, you only need to use blank DVDs for stuff you want to keep, or wish to play on another machine. These types of machine burn the discs for you, without the need to integrate the DVD Recorder into the PC, which seems to me, would only add to the complexities of the matter.
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Thats why I suggested that Kiss one Simon, so that 99% of the time you just use the inbuilt hard drive and if you do record something that you would like to keep then just transfer via ethernet to your pc and burn it to a cd or dvd using the pcs cd writer or dvd writer.
That has the advantage of being able to play on other peoples dvd players too as you can burn it as + or - whereas most of the recordable will only do - I think unless you get the philips one which is pushing the + format.
Presumably you could play back any jpgs from your pc as a slide show via the ethernet conection, on your tv without having to burn them to a cd first, if you wanted :)
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I realised what you meant Sandra, but the DVD Recorders with hard drives can do that anyway, without the complication of using a PC. The DVD-R format is compatible with most DVD Players, from what I understand.
All Clive wants (and this also applies to myself) is to replace his VCR to record TV Programmes. With that Kiss thing, it seems you would be paying for a lot of features you would never normally use, and I'm not entirely convinced that the build quality is up to much either.
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Mrs Clive likes to save programmes so that she can lend them to her Mum so I am coming more and more to the conclusion that burning to DVD is what we need. I wouldn't really be interested in connecting it up to my computer anyway. This has proved to be a very useful debate.
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Yes, that would seem the way to go, Clive. I don't suppose for a minute that the ones with hard drives would be more expensive, would they? ::)
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Here's another interesting website:
http://www.dvd-recorder-buying-guide.com/
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Unless, (like in my case), money is the deciding factor, then I would always go for something that does as much as possible so that it will last a few years without becoming obsolete as quickly as some of the models with less features will do.
My main use for recording from the TV is to watch later then scrub it so I would definately want a hard drive recorder in preference to one that just did it onto dvd.
As Clive has said on a couple of earlier threads, they all appear to use the same internal components and drive trains for VCRs and DVDs so I think that the build quality is mainly down to the finish and the appearance of the case Simon.
I like the flexibility of something like the Kiss player too as its probably going to be easier and cheaper to upgrade your pcs dvd writer to the new 9 gig ones that are about to come out than to get another dvd recorder capable of the 9 gig dvds when they come out probably 12 to 18 months later :)
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Unless, (like in my case), money is the deciding factor, then I would always go for something that does as much as possible so that it will last a few years without becoming obsolete as quickly as some of the models with less features will do.
Agreed, but most of the facilities on the Kiss (Full DVD/MPEG-4/DivX®/XviD/CD/MP3/Ogg Vorbis/CD-RW/DVD+-RW compatibility) are also available on other machines, and the one's that are not, i.e. DivX/XviD/Ogg Vorbis (not sure about MPEG-4), are not really what you would use for day-to-day recordings. I would therefore rather get a (possibly) better manufactured known brand, but obviously that's just personal preference. For £499, the same price as the Kiss, you can get a top of the range, multi-format Toshiba with a 60Gb Hard Drive. See here. (http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/productdetails/index.asp?modelcode=TOS-RDXS30&clear=)
My main use for recording from the TV is to watch later then scrub it so I would definately want a hard drive recorder in preference to one that just did it onto dvd.
If a Hard Drive DVDR is financially off limits, you could achive much the same results using DVD-RWs for your basic 'watch and wipe' recordings, and DVD-Rs for stuff you want to keep.
Features of the Toshiba RDXS30 include:
o Hard Disc and DVD-RAM/R Recorder (Region 2)
o Recording Media: 60GB HDD / DVD-RAM / DVD-R
o Use HDD for General Recording, DVD-RAM for Archiving & DVD-R for Giveaway Copies
o Playback Media: DVD-RAM, DVD-R, HDD, DVD-Video, VCD, CD, CD-R/RW (CD-DA Only)
o Selectable Recording Quality for Audio and Video
o MP3 Playback
o Quick & Easy Transfer of Recordings between HDD and DVD-RAM
o High Speed Library Dubbing with Title / Chapter Name and Other Info
o Time Slip Recording: Chase TV (Play during Recording), Pause TV and Simultaneous Record and Play
o Create Thumbnail Menu when Recording onto DVD-R
o Intuitive & Easy to Use Menus - Handle a Video Using Thumbnail Picture Based GUI
o Library Function - up to 3000 Titles (999 Discs), Store Recordings by Genre
o Auto Setup
o Dolby Digital / DTS Output
o 2 SCART
o Digital Co-axial and Optical Audio Output
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I think youll find that without a hard drive you wont get many progs on a 4.7 gig dvd Simon, unless you drop the quality.
So if you were out for the evening and there was a film on and possibly a 30 min programme as well you wouldnt be able to record both.
I think that the Kiss players are actually German so I should think that they would be equally as good as the Toshiba which is probably assembled in China, Taiwan or Malaysia :)
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I believe you can get up to 4 hours on a DVD-RW, if you drop the quality to the equivalent of S-VHS, which is still better than standard video quality, and if you only want to watch it once, that should be perfectly acceptable, especially if it is recorded from a digital source, such as Sky or Freeview. Yes, you can obviously get more on a 60Gb hard drive - I was pointing out the cheaper alternative. I'm not going to keep arguing about the Kiss thing, but apart from anything else, it looks cheap and horrible and it's got a stupid name, so I certainly wouldn't buy one. :P
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Well I definately wouldnt consider buying one that would only record or possibly playback either + or - formats ::)
The - format may turn out to be the Betamax of dvds in a year or two :o
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Well, I suppose that's true, but it could equally go the other way, so what do you do? Wait 5 years for the format wars to end, or live for the moment, and take the plunge one way or t'other? The majority at the moment are the - format, and unless you go for something cheap and horrid looking like the Kiss, you're not going to get a multi-format for under £500.
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Good afternoon, all. :D. I have been out in my garden all morning placing all the lovely garden ornaments I got from Santa. :D.
Clive and I are simple souls so I will give you the benefit of my limited knowledge of DVD recorders.
I bought the philips dvd recorder for my daughter's birthday and it was really cheap considering all the other expensive models (£249). It records at + format and extends up to 6 hours, although the quality at 6 hours is only as good as vcr quality at long play.
It came with 5 free recordable discs which she can use over and over again just like video cassettes. If it was me Clive, I would not venture into the more expensive models at this time as, like Sandra says newer models are coming onto the market every day. I was given a free panasonic dvd player with my new television but it plays - format dvd-rs so I don't think I will be able to play back anything that my daughter has recorded on hers but as I got it for nothing I am not bothered. Mine will play vcds and svcds and the usual cds. Unfortunately it does not play divx but I can live without that in the meantime until the market makes up it's mind where it is going. Watch the sales Clive and you could pick up a bargain. :D
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The big problem with waiting is technology is improving so fast that there will always be something better around the corner. I think that you have to draw the line somewhere and make a decision. That buying guide is just what I've been looking for as it actually tells you which features each model has in simple terms. I don't subscribe to any of the movie channels and would be more likely to buy a copy of any film I wanted as opposed to recording it. It would be used mostly for recording the likes of Agatha Christie (Mrs Clive's favourite) or hour-long programmes such as Horizon.
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We seem to be getting bogged down with compatabilities with other machines. Surely if you can record something and watch it back, that's really all you need to worry about, unless you are regularly recording things for other people. One of my criteria is that I want one which has Freeview Set Top Box control, which my current VCRs both have, but it's not looking too hopeful on that front at the moment. This means I would also have to look for a new Freeview STB, as my current one doesn't have a usable timer facility. :-\
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Well, I think I'm going to settle for the Pioneer DVR3100S which can be seen here:
http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/productdetails/index.asp?modelcode=PIO-DVR3100S&clear= (http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/productdetails/index.asp?modelcode=PIO-DVR3100S&clear=)
I'm away in London until Tuesday so I will order it online when I return.
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I've been meaning to get a dvd recoeder for a while,but that fiend Santa Claus has drained the bank account dry.
I dont know why people worry about compatability of the formats, both +R and -R are around 90% compatible i.e. both formats will play in the majority of players. I dont think there is a format war a la vhs/betamax/philips and anyway once blue ray (and its various formats !!!!!) come along then the current formats may well be phased out.
Based on numerous reviews and experience of the brand i personally would buy a panasonic recorder. I'd originally liked the look of the philips models but i seem to have read numerous reports of various software/hardware failures when they are still nearly new.
As to the hard drive option, i think it would probably be the perfect solution, archive what you want, erase the rest. My only misgiving would be the fragility of hard discs, a subject close to my heart. The ideal scenario might then be seperates
::)
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The Panasonic is the same price.
http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/productdetails/index.asp?modelcode=PAN-DMRE60EBS&clear= (http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/productdetails/index.asp?modelcode=PAN-DMRE60EBS&clear=)
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The thing about the Panasonic is that it's DVD-RAM, but not DVD-RW. DVD-RAM is apparently the most versitile when it comes to editing, but to play DVDs recorded on a Panny, on another machine, would require them to be copied to 'one write' DVD-Rs. This is another dilemma, in that DVD-RAM discs are around a fiver each, for a 4.7Gb, but DVD-RW discs are only about £2 for 3 discs! What I'm not certain about is whether DVD-RW discs intended for a PC can also be used in DVD Recorders.
Bloody confusing isn't it! :-\
Edit: I think I would also go for the Pioneer. It seems to have all the features I need. I think I might see if it comes down in price a bit first though.
Second Edit: It's cheaper here, but I've never used them:
http://www.digitaldirectuk.com/products_moreinfo3/index.asp?product_id=1981
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That settles it then Simon. The Pioneer it will be. I'll order it on Tuesday so hopefully it will arrive by next weekend.
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I'm finding it difficult to resist myself, Clive! :-\
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before you make up your mind Clive. Try this site out
http://www.srtl.co.uk/srtl/dvdr.html
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I'm sure that they have already dropped quite a bit in price since I first started looking at them a few weeks ago. In a year's time they will probably be £199 but I don't want to wait that long. The plasma TV which I bought exactly a year ago has fallen considerably in price, but then I've had a whole year of wonderful pleasure out of it and I don't begrudge the money I've lost on it at all.
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:aarrgh: Lona! ;D My mind is made up now. That's always the most difficult part for me. ;D
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Worth having a look here (http://audiovisual.kelkoo.co.uk/shopbot/sort.jsp?field=totalprice&recorder=yes&type=DVD+Player&catId=127701&manufacturer=Pioneer&category=consumer&catPath=uk%2FdvdPlayers&from=browse#) to give you a price including delivery... ;)
I notice for £20 more you can have it multiregional too... :o ;) 8)
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Multiregional would be even better! Good find Camstop.
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Having multi-region would certainly be an advantage if it were to be your main DVD Player, or if you didn't already have a multi-region player, however, bear in mind you can't watch a different disc while you are recording on another, i.e., you can't watch a DVD movie, while recording something on TV, as you can only have one disc in the machine at a time. I suppose this is where the Hard Drive machine would have the advantage, but if you have another DVD Player which will play DVD-RWs, it's not really an issue. Are you going for the Hard Drive version of the Pioneer, Clive? As I already have a multi-region player, I have no real need of another, so will be going for the non-hard drive Pioneer DVR-3100 (Region 2) for £349.
Edit: Gulp! :o I've done it! Ordered from link above. I don't have much hope that it will arrive next week, but it will be a nice surprise if it does!
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I already have a multiregional DVD player which I intend to keep in the system so I will take your advice and get the region 2. I hope you haven't had the last one Simon as I can't order mine until I get home from London in case it turns up while I'm away. ;D
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Thought I'd stick my oar in here (having had one for about 18 months now :))
There never really was a format war - all DVDs have to conform to certain physical attributes, it's just the way data is laid out that is different.
DVD-r and +r are pretty much identical in terms of compatability on other players. Early +R recorders had a few problems (thats why the Philips recorders had an option to 'tweak' the recording to make them play on some machines). There were also reliability issues with early machines (Philips had a problem with machines dying while the Panasonic was a bit choosy over discs).
DVD-Ram best format for editing and timeslip, Treats the disc as a big floppy/drive to all intents and purposes. Main advantage is it allows timeslip as standard. This is because of the drive analogy where you can read a file while writing one out. RAM discs come in two forms - caddied (about £5) and uncaddied (about £2). Difference is the caddied ones should be good for about 100,000 re-recordings compared to the uncaddied which are good for about 1000. Disadvantages: not as compatible as other formats when you try and play a disc on other machines.
DVDRW (plus and minus) both re-recordable formats. Discs good for about 1000 recordings. Advantage: can be used on other machines quite easily (usually). Disadvantages: +RW uses constant bit rate recording
As DVD plus is an 'unofficial' format that has not been approved by the DVD consortium then there is no guarantee it is likely to be supported by all players (for some reason my panasonics don't like them :))
Latest Pioneer drive has it's own 'new' format (VR mode) to enable the timeslip function, this is NOT compatible with other players.
Hard drives - A few recorders have hard drives built in which can be used to extend the record time and also have a few features like high speed dubbing to/from disc.
What it comes down to is "how do you intend using the recorder"?
Nearest to a VCR is probably the RAM range (as you can just delete parts of programs to free up space, with +/- RW you don't get free space back until the disc is reformatted or a recording is deleted). The compatability issue isn't usually a problem as when was the last time you loaned a recording out?
Alternativly there are some hard drive recorders (Tivo style) that only allow you to record to hard drive and have a DVD PLAYER included - this has the advantage of a larger storage but there is no way to then transfer the recording to someone else.
Also worth mentioning that you can't 'dub' from one player to a dvd-recorder unless macrovision and cgms has been disabled on the player.
Swings and roundabouts :)
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So are you saying that the Pioneer which Simon and I are buying is incompatible with other DVD players? Or is our model not the "latest" drive? Getting worried again now!
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Not exactly :)
If you record in the format that allows you to use timeslip then the discs will be incompatible. If you record in standard DVD+/-RW mode then they will work.
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Phew! Thanks Dack. ;D
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Why don't you just go to the picture, Clive. Next year you will get in for pensioner's rate. ;D ;D ;D
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:wahh: :bart:
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So are you saying that the Pioneer which Simon and I are buying is incompatible with other DVD players? Or is our model not the "latest" drive? Getting worried again now!
Of course if you had got the Kiss player you could always have recorded it on your pcs dvd writer and then it would work on all dvd players as well as having its built in hard drive for timeslip and stuff that you didnt want to keep forever :P
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Does it come with a sheet to cover it up with Sandra? :P ;D ;D
I believe my Pioneer DVR-3100 will be fine for what I want, and I will be mainly using DVD-RW discs, so that I can watch them back on my other machine, while I'm recording new programmes, much as I use my three VCRs at the moment. Only problem is, I could really do with 2 DVDRs, for when two things are on different channels at the same time. Will definitely be waiting for a price reduction before buying another one though!
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Does it come with a sheet to cover it up with Sandra? :P ;D ;D
Typical male ::)
Do you not realise that its not always the best looking things that are the best to have.
Functionality, durability and practicality are more than skin deep you know :P :P :P
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The term 'durability' may be a little optimistic Sandra. After all, as it's only just come out, how do we know how long it will last?! ;) ;D ;D
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Kiss have been around quite a few years and I think they are German so that means they are quality in my book :)
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Also attributes of the volkswagen Beetle - still doesn't mean I'd buy one :)