PC Pals Forum
Technical Help & Discussion => Self Building, Upgrading & General Hardware Help => Topic started by: Tony on January 31, 2004, 13:40
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My friend from Cumbria, has at long last become sickened of his low resource crashing, freezing bag o s**t, otherwise known as a Patriot PC running Win 98.
Bang for your Bucks in the CPU department, invariably points me in the direction of AMD chips. But as I have not yet weighed up the current price for Mhz, ratio, I'm undeceided on the size. But I will be using an Asrock Mobo and a 8xAGP graphics card.
Though I'm a fan of professional model CRT monitors for my trading [you cannot half wack em when they let the share price fall ] Desk top space is at a premium for my friend. So I would appreciate recommandations for reasonably priced TFT monitors. He does not spend hours glued to the PC like us nuts, so no need to be top of the range overpriced products ::)
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well the 2500XP Barton is going for £64.62 and that's basically the highest anyone should need unless they are crazy or need to do a lot of processing ;D
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E buyer have a few 15 inch TFT ones at around the £250 mark Tony, not sure what they are like but worth a look :)
As Robo says the 2500 Barton seems to be as fast as anyone would need, I was most impressed with the one I built just after Xmas using one with an Asus board and 512mbs of 333 DDR :)
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Well caught Tony! I haven't had a sniff of any new commissions lately. :( In fact, if nothing turns up in a while, I may have to satisfy the urge, and build myself a new one! :o :o
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Cheers Playmates,
I think will be going with the 2500+ Barton, as prices have drop a bit since I last built one a few months back. CCL are doing a Barton (http://www.cclcomputers.biz/acatalog/) at £66 including a heatsink and fan. And they are also doing a Samsung TFT at £228
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A word of advice Tony, may save you teh hassle I had :(
The 2500 Barton runs at 333, the mobo I put it in accepted DDR ram at 266, 333 and 400.
The friend I was building it for had some 266 so we were going to use that but it didnt work ???
Turned out that with a 333 cpu that asus board would only work with 333 DDR, was fine with that in :)
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Probably worth mentioning that PCWorld have 256M PC3200 (400MHz) DDRam at £21.45 at the moment. It's in their component section and that price is for the next 3 days only (mind you it's been that for the last 3 weeks :))
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Cheers Sandra,
it's a "new everything" build so I'll be installing PC2700 333Mhz Memory. And I'll be using the same Motherboard I used on my last PC build, the Asrock K7S8X (http://www.asrock.com/product/product_k7s8x.htm) I find these boards exellent value for money.
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Might be worth paying the extra few pounds and getting the 8XE - it supports the 400MHz FSB as well. (Just used one in a machine based around Barton 2500)
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Dack,
I looked at the XE, but as the X supports the Barton 2500+ and considering my mate will just run this PC for yonks. When he does ask about upgrading, even the XE will be a museum piece, so it would just be £6.50 of his money wasted.
Right now he is running a Patriot 233Mhz Cyrix MII, with 4MB on board graphics on a 32MB Memory, so I think he is in for a suprise :o
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Its just the overclocking potential of the Barton can usually be realised by simply changing the FSB to 200 from 166 :)
(It then comes up as a 3200).
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Bugger ;) now look what you have gone and done Dack.I'm tempted now, does it raise the temp by much ?
I mean you'll know, so this is for the benefit of others reading the thread. The 3200+ is priced at £157.94, where as the 2500+ Barton is £66.12 [including coolers] So thats a whopping £91.82 price differance.
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That sounds almost too good to be true - there must be a catch. :-\
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You mean apart from the void warranty, Simon ? ::)
Simon I just looked at my pricing spreadsheet, and do you know how much a XP3200+ cost six months ago £362 :o :o :o
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Well, it's like everything else, Tony, it's only new for a day. ;)
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Worth checking out:
http://www.ocworkbench.com/ocwb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=003047;p=1 (http://www.ocworkbench.com/ocwb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=003047;p=1)
For temperature increases etc.
Newest Bartons don't overclock as well but the usual increase people are getting is about 195 instead of 166 (or just under an XP3200+ speed).
On the one I've got here I simply changed the FSB to 200 to start with - that worked :) (for a bit) but then I started getting lockups so downclocked it a bit.
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Well I settled on the spec, and here it is:
AsRock K7S8XE motherboard
AMD XP 2500+ Barton
GeForce FX 5200 128MB 8 x AGP
512MB DDR 333Mhz Memory
Western Digital ?Caviar? 80GB HDD
Samsung DVD-CD Drive 16 x 48
Samsung RW-CD Drive 52 x 32 x 52
Floppy Disk Drive
Proview 17? LCD Monitor with integrated speakers
Microsoft Keyboard and Optical Mouse
Suntek TH-651 Case with 2 front and 4 rear USB ports.
One additional 8cm Case Fan.
All items ordered online at 8.30 am Wednesday morning, from Dabs (http://www.dabs.com/uk/home.html?lstep=2&c_id=10) and CCL (http://www.cclcomputers.biz/acatalog/) I used Dabs because CCL dont stock AsRock Mobo's [at the mo] or Suntek cases. I find CCL prices are more competative than Dabs, plus you can at least email or speak on the phone to a person at CCL. Dabs on the other hand don't want to know , so if you have a question about the product, tough.
So on price and customer contact I find CCL much better than Dabs, but Dabs beat CCL into a cocked hat when it comes to delivery. Dabs delivered the case and motherboard Thursday morning around 9.00 am, as for CCL on the other hand I'm still waiting, as the graphics card was out of stock, though at the time of ordering all items were listed as in stock. But o be fair I think stock levels are checked and adjusted online at end of day.
I rang Thursday, and their sales said they were due in that day, and their web site indicates they are back in stock as of Friday. But the Proview Monitor is listed as OS now, I hope they allocated me one before they ran out. >:(
Anyway I know the PSU and case fans work ;D incidently the 8cm case fan in the picture is one I bought earlier from CCL, they are so cheap you can buy them in bulk Dabs charge ballpark £6 for a 8cm case fan, whilst CCL's "ASKA" 8cm case fans only cost £1.75
(https://www.pc-pals.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suggy.plus.com%2FSuntek%2520K7S8XE.jpg&hash=56b1e6e420504a5a3b9ba4f40e47175f4f13b4ba)
Just a couple more gripes, the USB cables for the front ports on the Suntek case could do with being a couple of inches longer. And Why do some Motherboard manufactures put the Case fan connecter at the front bottom side on the MOBO, when invariably the fan is positioned rear nearer the top on the case >:(
Come on CCL get your finger out >:(
My fellow Chuckle Brother Simon and I, do hope some of you find our PC building exploits/traumas of benefit ;D
If not tell us, as in my case my "typing" finger is so slow it means writing about building a PC invariably takes as long as building one, And I could spend the time talking to the Wife instead of typing ;)
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Why do some Motherboard manufactures put the Case fan connecter at the front bottom side on the MOBO, when invariably the fan is positioned rear nearer the top on the case >:(
That's exactly the trouble I had with an Asus mobo, but as AsRock are made by Asus, I suppose that's not surprising. I imagine they expect you to put the fan in the front of the case, but if you did, where would you plug in a rear fan if you also wanted one? Only having one case fan connector (and in the wrong place), is a real let down, on an otherwise good value mobo, in my opinion.
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Only having one case fan connector (and in the wrong place), is a real let down, on an otherwise good value mobo, in my opinion.
I agree Simon, mind you that is about all that is lacking on this motherboard. And in the biggest majority of builds, one additional fan connection is sufficient. Indeed I have yet to open up one of the "Big Box Shifters" PC World/ Curries/Comet offerings that have an additional fan in them. Maybe the latest models have case fans, but I ain't come across any in my travels. But that said, if your into over clocking and as such in need of more cooling, a more costly board would be needed.
The K7S8X which supports 333FSB CPU's up to 3000+ is only £24.50 and it also supports DDR400, and the K7S8XE which supports 400FSB CPU's is only £31.50 both inclusive of VAT. And both boards have an 8xAGP slot, 5 PCI slots, plus on board Lan, and 4 rear USB ports with a header on the board for 2 frontUSB ports. You can easily pay double those prices for same spec mobo's
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Have I deposed Simon as ?The Most Awkward CCL Customer? ::)
It all started with a phone call to CCL last Thursday, regarding my order scheduled for Friday delivery, as I had noticed the graphics card according to their website had gone out of stock. I was told they would be back in stock that day.
Anyway, Friday I notice graphics is indeed in stock, but the monitor has gone OS. So Monday, as I do not received a dispatch consignment note via email from CCL I decided to phone them.
Anyway I queued for a while and then get disconnected before getting hold of a human, don?t you just hate it when that happens. OK I?ll email them:
Hi there,
I have an order No: 32*****, scheduled for delivery last Friday. I rang Thursday and was told the graphics card was OS but expected in that day. Friday I noticed online it was marked as in stock, and then I noticed the monitor had reverted to OS. Question is, was a monitor allocated to my order, and when will the order be dispatched.
No reply came the answer, not even a read receipt, so in the afternoon I?m back on the phone again, After queuing I finally get a sales advisor called Phillip,
Me: Hi Philip I?m chasing order No 32*****
Philip: It?s awaiting a graphics card
Me: No it?s not..........
Philip: Oh your right it?s been picked.
Me: Eh!!!!! Will it be dispatched to day
Philip: Donno, it?s out of our hands, carrier you see.
Me: Will you issue a dispatch note if you do dispatch
Philip: No, we don?t do that anymore
Me: Eh !!! you used to
Philip: I know, but not any more
Me: Eh !!! You mean I dare not leave the house for a week in case my order is on a van?????????
Philip: Ring the carriers
Me: Yer right, without a consignment number, they will think I?m nuts!!!!!!!!
Philip: MMM proburbly, I know it sounds silly doesn?t it , but I don?t usually do this job.
Me: Phillip, ? your dicking me ? right? You have not allocated me a monitor, and now you dare not tell me. Tell me the truth, least ways I can leave the house tomorrow.
Philip: No your order has been picked, ready for dispatch.
Me: But you first said it was waiting for a graphics card , then a miracle happens so the more you say the more I?m losing confidence in what you?re saying .
Philip: No it?s picked.
Phone down, I have a cunning plan, I ring a mate. Michael your 15 mins from CCL, do us a favor, if I can arrange for you to pick up my order, it will force CCL?s hand, sorted.
Me: Hi Philip, I have a mate??..
Philip: Donno about that, hold a mo??.You best ring customer services ??I?m customer sales.
Bollacks, phone down
Customer Services here:
HI Wassem, the story so far??????
Wassem: put the story in writing or an email, as the boss?s won?t believe me.
Me: I bloody did??.
Wassem: Oh leave it with me I?ll ring you back about dispatch, because if it is picked it will be in the ?dispatch cage? cannot get it out for pickup by your mate
An hour later, how long does it take to confirm an order is ready.
Me: Hi Neil, I?m awaiting a call from Wassem????.
Neil: Wassem is sat next to me, I?ll sort it for you
Ring Ring, Hello
Wassem: Why you ring, I said I?d ring you
Me: Yes but you didn?t, well now your on the phone, have you sorted it,
Wassem: No, but I will, even if I have to stay till 7 0?clock tonight.
Me: What?s so hard about ascertaining if the order is picked or not, caged or not?
Wassem: I?m not allowed to leave my desk, so if my internal emails are not answered???.
So come 5 o?clock, it?s time to email Wassem again
Hi Wassem,
sorry if I spelt your name wrong , anyway here is the copy of the email you requested.
The wife works in Hewlett Packhard customer support, and you know what, you sound just like one of her co workers, Imran.
Charm the birds out of the tree's he does, so failing dispatch of my order, I'd like to have your babies. But seeing as I'm a bloke, I say that safe in the knowledge that either the dispatch of my order Monday, or my conception, are two miracles even beyond your undoubted abilities.
Well I dare say, dealing with Dabs won?t be half as entertaining as conversing with CCL, but I dare say I'll just have to except their next day delivery as compensation.
All the best,
Tony
5.54pm I get an answer phone message
Wassem here, your order is dispatch, this is the consignment number, and here is the carrier?s local depot phone number. Hope to speak to you soon.
I check the carriers website, and yes it was picked up by the carrier and due for delivery today.
So you see miracles can and do happen, but I cannot help but think, having one of Wassem?s babies may have been the easier option.
And I cannot help but feel there is a problem somewhere in the system that needs rectifying..........anyone seen Phillip ?
Beat that Simon ;D ;D
PS: In the interest's of fairness I must state that I have had four seperate orders from CCL Computers via their online website. And this last one was the only one that did not come up to expectations. Will I still use them as my first choice supplier.........YES....as Wassem pulled it out of the fire for them at the last very last minute.
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A most entertaining read, Tony. :D
It's much the same problem as I had. CCL are great, if you can sit in all day, and not worry when your order is going to arrive. The problems start when you start complicating things by asking awkward questions like, "Have my goods been dispatched?", at which point they don't seem to know their arse from their elbow. There is certainly a bridge that needs repairing between their Ordering and Dispatch departments.
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Oh dear trouble at the mill,
when I switch the PC on, it runs for a few seconds, I mean a few seconds as in about "four" then it dies. So I have disconnected "everything" one at a time. Only when I removed the CPU does it not cut out.
Now I'm glad those AsRock boards are not expensive, since after removing the heatsink and fan, I noticed that part of the plastic lugs that the heatsink clip anchores on to have broken. Now I don't know if it was my hamfistedness installing the HS or taking it off?
Question is, is/was the CPU faulty from the start, or if the HS was not sat firmly on the CPU, would the temp cutout on the MOBo work that fast, and reset with in seconds. Anyway another board on the way from Dabs.
Advice regards the above will be appreciated from the experts.
:-\
Off to the Daughters for tea, I expect to see loads of advice when I get back ::)
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Off to the Daughters for tea, I expect to see loads of advice when I get back ::)
Oh, I see - swan off to your daughter's for tea and expect us to do all the work for you eh? ;D
My tea's just been put on the table, so you'll get no help from me until I've eaten it matey ;)
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Now I'm glad those AsRock boards are not expensive, since after removing the heatsink and fan, I noticed that part of the plastic lugs that the heatsink clip anchores on to have broken.
I wonder if that's one of the corners they cut to keep the cost of the boards down? Can you not return it to Dabs as faulty? How do you know that lug wasn't weak when you got it? As far as cutting out quickly goes, my guess would also be that the problem was in the seating of the CPU / Heatsink / Fan collaboration. By cutting out quickly, it may hopefully have saved the CPU from damage, which is, after all, what it's supposed to do.
Anyway, that's my two pennath -- now back to the expert, when he's finished stuffing his face!
;D ;D
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I think its the heatsink not being fitted correctly Tony that caused it to overheat and the thermal cutout shut it down.
They do seem to cool down enough to restart very quickly :(
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Cheers matey's,
It's all part of the learning curve, must admit I did seem to struggle a bit installing the HS, i tried doing it with the board in situ just to see if it could be done. In the end I took the board out of the case, but it seemed OK, when i clipped it into place. I mean I'm hopeing it was me being clumsy installing the HS, or it means it's something else. And I just knackered a good board when I took the HS off, two of the lugs where hanging on so to speak, how good is superglue ::)
Whilst I was driving over to the Daughters, I thought.... PSU, Ok it's only a 300watt, that's the only PSU they do with that case. Their whole range have 300watt PSU's, I cannot see them limiting there salebility by having a PSU in that wont run current CPU's. I mean surely it should run the mobo and CPU and a case fan???? I've been looking on the AMD site but found nowt yet. To be honest I thought I know what Sandra's going to say.
Simon, I think the CPU socket is a bog standard socket used be many mobo makers.
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now then on going to this site http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/ (http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/) link by dreddg99 [cheers] everything up and running it reckons I need minimum 336 watts. But like I said, nothing but the mobo, cpu, keybboard and mouse, case fan, CPU fan, the ready reckoner adds that lot up to 167 watts. So 300watt should have eat it. All be it that a bigger PSU is proburbly needed.
Where is the best place online for PSU's [fast]
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now then on going to this site http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/ (http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/) link by dreddg99 [cheers] everything up and running it reckons I need minimum 336 watts. But like I said, nothing but the mobo, cpu, keybboard and mouse, case fan, CPU fan, the ready reckoner adds that lot up to 167 watts. So 300watt should have eat it. All be it that a bigger PSU is proburbly needed.
Where is the best place online for PSU's [fast]
Tony, Iv'e just calculated for my new case that I'm getting and I might need to up the PSU :-\
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Well Hooky,
I've just toted my current system up using that site and it says I need 335 watts minimum. Yet it's the same 300watt supply in the same caee as this new PC is in, and I han never had a moments bother with it!!!!!!!! So dont buy a new PSU just yet mate.
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Same here :)
Mine came to 422W but I only have a 350W power supply and it seems to be OK.
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Adept's system is running fine on a PSU rated to be short 17.06% of the minimum needed, according to that site. So on that maths, the new PC I've built should run on a 300watt PSU with 21watts to spare :)
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... or maybe I've just got a bloody good PSU Tony :o ;)
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My Recommended Minimum Power Supply is 324 Watts. My case came with a 350W PSU, so I should be OK to add a few more bits! ;D ;D
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Theres a good deal on Q-TEC ones at ARD at the moment Tony, get yourself over for one its only at Altham Industrial Estate near Padiham :)
http://www.ardelectronics.com/
Click on Computers then Power Supplies from left hand menu.
499-01135: Q-TEC PSU 550W DUAL FAN - GOLD £22.95
499-01299: Q-TEC PSU 400W DUAL FAN - GOLD £18.99
499-01300: Q-TEC PSU 450W DUAL FAN - GOLD £19.99
All plus vat but still a good price, a friend of mine has used a few 550s lately and seems pleased with them, I dont think you will run short of power with one of those in :)
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Ahhh but? the calculation is for everything running at maximum speeds and power at the same time..do you, I think not ;)
Its like having a car that has 140 mph on the speedo, do you drive at 140..naaa more like on avg 55 mph ;D
Hookstar the realist 8)
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Cheers Sandra,
Dabs do a 400watt one for £21.61 delivered, next day if you order in the morning. But in the interests of science :) I'll see if a new board cures the cutting out. If it does then it was down to me being ham fisted.
Then I'll run SiSandra burn test, to see what happens, in any case all it will be used for is word doc, and a bit of photo editing, like cropping and removing red eye ;D
Like I say my PC with two dual head graphics cards, running three monitors, two hard drives and a XP 2000+ , plus two case fans, sails along on a 300watt PSU.
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A place near me has loads of different cases, most are 300 watts but they said they would put a bigger one in and charge the difference so you dont end up with a spare 300 if you wanted to upgrade.
Maybe it would be better if all cases were sold without a PSU then you could get which you wanted, as not all PSUs are equal either as far as noise and reliabilty go :)
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A place near me has loads of different cases, most are 300 watts but they said they would put a bigger one in and charge the difference so you dont end up with a spare 300 if you wanted to upgrade.
Maybe it would be better if all cases were sold without a PSU then you could get which you wanted, as not all PSUs are equal either as far as noise and reliabilty go :)
That's reasonable, who wants to not only end up with a load of 300watt PSU, but pay for the buggers. and very trueregards your other remarks re case only.
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Just orded
This one >> http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=34825
Anybody want to buy a brand new 300w PSU ;D
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Just orded
This one >>
I've been looking at that one myself Hook, but I'm interested in the noise levels it produces.
Let us know how you get on with it, will you?
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As I said earlier Sean, they are not bad , a friend has used afew of the QTec 550s and has been pleased with the noise levels.
Last year they were on special offer at ARD for cheaper than the 400 watt ones, I almost bought a couple myself as the place is near me, so with no postage they worked out at around £15 each inc vat at that time :o
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Now that you have probably read in another thread I have sent the case back because it was damaged in transit, I might just pick another case with out the PSU ;D
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Update:
The only way to see if something is possible, is to try it. So I nipped out to the local hardware store and bought some industrial supa glue. And if you have not already guess, I supa glued the two broken lugs back onto the CPU socket. And on closer inspection, I noticed a lump of the moulding just sat above the fracture, but serving no purpose.
So, Simon pay attention, I got my little soldering iron out and did a bit of "plastic welding" so to speak. Solid as a rock it was, I had the CPU on and off three times, that's another story. Anyway I noticed, the heat transfer pad was unmarked, so it was obvious I had missed seating it on to the CPU die by a mile, hence the constant cut outs. Anyway short story, after two attempts at cleaning CPU and HS, and applying a new heat transfer pad, Eureka it worked.
I bought, but did not use those pads, on my last build because the CPU Temp was running at 60.C, as far as AMD are concerned that is within limits. But I reckon they should run around mid forties. Anyway soon as the pads arrived, the temp settled down to the mid forties ::)
And not only that, even though that Power reckoner site, said I needed a PSU minimum 336 watt, the 300watt PSU handles it no problem, possibly because it's built to a German spec ::)
This XP 2500+ Barton flies, makes my XP 2000+ setup seem slow. And wait for it, where as my PC temps are Case 33.C and Chip 45.C this New Barton PC is running at Case 26.C and Chip 36.C so I'm well suited.
So it looks like I'll have a spare mobo in stock, as a replacement arrives tomorrow. :)
Well I thought I woud just share that supa glue and welding job with you all, because you never know when your lugs could drop off ;D
PS: see Simon, those little soldering irons, don't half come in handy.
:)
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At least you got it sorted, Tony. Another good experiance on the learning curve! ;) But how did you 'miss' the CPU with the thermal pad? :o :o ::) ;D Are you still using those brilliant Thermaltake Volcano's?
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How did I miss, maybe I broke the lugs will I was fitting it to the CPU, so it would not be seated as the spring clip would have raised it up, hell I donno ;D But like you say a great learning curve.
The HS/F came as part of a AMD boxed set, all in the AMD livery, certificate and all. It said on the pack "not for resale" !!!!! anyway, the chip has a 3 year warranty, could come in handy that ::)
Never had Temp results like that with the Thermalakes, got it from CCl , they are a good price for the set.
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(https://www.pc-pals.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suggy.plus.com%2FBarton2500.jpg&hash=102e05c0858490aa702eeb5fcbd450cfe88d27ea)
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Nice Table Cloth Tony ;D
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:lol:
OK, it aint a "Posers Tower" but I go for robust German build quality, and anyway the internals are more important to me than the externals, so sod off you Flash Git ;D ;)
Actualy that table cloth, is a "shower curtain" bought in a "yard sale" in Sommerville, New Jersey............I often think, I bet that's seen some of the biggest arses in the world :o
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Sommerville is that the next town to Rahway ;)
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I donno, I'm not from those theeeeere parts,
Have a nice day ya hear :D
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Tony.. in all seriousness ....well just for 30 seconds ;D........... Rahway is a small town in New jersey that I visited 3 years back when I was seconded to work in our sister comapany in the states, and Im sure that other town was near :D
Ok back to being silly .. nice cloth mate ;D
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Is there any reason why the drives are positioned in the lower two slots in the case? Personally, I think they look better in the top two slots, unless you had the same problem as me, where the IDE cable isn't long enough. ::)
Other than that small niggle, it looks great Tony. ;D
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Actually Hooky, i think it is near to Sommerville, does it have a railway station, if so I think we passed through it on our way to the Big Apple.
Simon,
No particular reason why the drives are where they are. Other than you can hid the excess cable above the drives. In fact the top drive slot already has the metal blanking plate removed. Anyway it?s all boxed up ready to go to the lakes on a mini break. Otherwise I would not get anything done as I kept laking with it, plus the boss wanted her dining room back.
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Just orded
This one >>
I've been looking at that one myself Hook, but I'm interested in the noise levels it produces.
Let us know how you get on with it, will you?
SOOOOOO smooth Adept, but thats enough about me 8)
Plugged it in tonight and you can hardly hear it.
One bit of funny though :D, on the box it says, System requirments: Computer parts (mainboard,cpu,memory etc)
Hook 8) star
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Plugged it in tonight and you can hardly hear it.
Good enough for me ;) Looks like the magic plastic is going to get another bashing ;D ;D
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Does that mean that youll be bashing two things tonight then instead of the usual one Sean :o
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Ooooooooh ::) :bitch: ;D